Sleep Deprivation

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Proper Knob
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Post by Proper Knob » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:31 am

Jungledoc wrote:I was told by a man who claimed to have participated in "dark ops" inside a Communist country that amphetamine use was routine. It makes sense to me. If I were doing something like that for 3-4 days without sleep, I'd want the guy next to me to be on amphetamine!

The article is interesting, especially in that the lawyers claim that the pilots' judgement was impared by the amphetamine. That's not likely the case. Amphetamine doesn't impare judgement when used in this way, but improves it. Ask the parents of any ADHD kid on Adderal!

Back on topic, I think lack of sleep does indeed affect the quality of training well before 96 hours! Of course, I haven't been through SEALS training.
Correct me if i'm wrong Doc, but kids with ADHD have a part of their brain that doesn't function properly. Adderal, Ritalin etc activates the part of the brain that doesn't work. They go from being hyper to placid. People who are non ADHD go from placid to hyper once they've taken Amphetamine.

Back in my partying days i've seen people who have been awake for days on amphetamine, and trust me, you don't want them anywhere near a gun!!! Admittedly they're not highly trained individuals (far from it), but being awake for four days isn't good for anyone. Over a period of time, as it looks like in the case of these figher pilots, amphetamine is going to have an impact on their judgement.

Back to the thread, i always do 5mins or so on a bike to warm/wake me up before every session.


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Post by wilburburns » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:16 am

So Far, Lack of Sleep or just being tired has not stopped me from going to the Gym. However, Once there, the lack of sleep has kept motivation LOW and made me want to just get in and out quickly without putting forth my full effort.

Sadly, Other life Issues (Family, Kids, Work) does cause me to miss way to many workouts.

Also, I have found that a good hard workout is a good cure for insomnia, as long as the DOMS don't keep me up.

Cliff

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Post by Ironman » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:49 am

Proper Knob wrote:
Jungledoc wrote:I was told by a man who claimed to have participated in "dark ops" inside a Communist country that amphetamine use was routine. It makes sense to me. If I were doing something like that for 3-4 days without sleep, I'd want the guy next to me to be on amphetamine!

The article is interesting, especially in that the lawyers claim that the pilots' judgement was impared by the amphetamine. That's not likely the case. Amphetamine doesn't impare judgement when used in this way, but improves it. Ask the parents of any ADHD kid on Adderal!

Back on topic, I think lack of sleep does indeed affect the quality of training well before 96 hours! Of course, I haven't been through SEALS training.
Correct me if i'm wrong Doc, but kids with ADHD have a part of their brain that doesn't function properly. Adderal, Ritalin etc activates the part of the brain that doesn't work. They go from being hyper to placid. People who are non ADHD go from placid to hyper once they've taken Amphetamine.

Back in my partying days i've seen people who have been awake for days on amphetamine, and trust me, you don't want them anywhere near a gun!!! Admittedly they're not highly trained individuals (far from it), but being awake for four days isn't good for anyone. Over a period of time, as it looks like in the case of these figher pilots, amphetamine is going to have an impact on their judgement.

Back to the thread, i always do 5mins or so on a bike to warm/wake me up before every session.
You're mostly right. But the people you knew getting high were taking a much higher dose. That's kind of the difference between use and abuse.

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Post by Jungledoc » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:29 pm

Proper Knob wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong Doc, but kids with ADHD have a part of their brain that doesn't function properly. Adderal, Ritalin etc activates the part of the brain that doesn't work. They go from being hyper to placid. People who are non ADHD go from placid to hyper once they've taken Amphetamine.

Back in my partying days i've seen people who have been awake for days on amphetamine, and trust me, you don't want them anywhere near a gun!!! Admittedly they're not highly trained individuals (far from it), but being awake for four days isn't good for anyone. Over a period of time, as it looks like in the case of these figher pilots, amphetamine is going to have an impact on their judgement.
That's a pretty big over-simplification. Ironman is right.

The stimulants have the same effect on anyone, ADHD or not. It's just that people (not just kids, remember) with ADHD have a deficit that others don't have, so others will not notice the same changes that they will. If you were to take the same doses of Ritalin or Adderal that the average ADHD patient uses, you'd probably notice no more than mild stimulation, on the order of a couple of cups of coffee. It would last longer than the coffee, however, which is why it's more useful as a treatment for ADHD than caffeine.

Your party friends used stimulants in doses, and perhaps more importantly, in a different psychological context than do ADHD patients, and probably not in isolation from other psychoactive substances. Occasionally, ADHD people discover their diagnosis through illicit use of stimulants. I had a patient once who had used street speed in high school, and had observed that while all his friends just got goofy, he could function, do well in school, etc. (He did extremely will on prescription stims, by the way, successfuly holding a job for the first time in his life.)

You never see a headline on an expose that fighter pilots consumed 3 cups of coffee prior to a mission, but I would ask, "what's the difference?" Caffeine is just a better-known, better-accepted, and shorter-acting stimulant. Many, many ADHD people get along by using it.

As for use in military situations, I doubt that pharmacological doses of stimulants would do anything other than enhance the judgement and functioning of special ops forces or fighter pilots who were sleep deprived. I'd rather that they both get adequate sleep, but I realize that there may be times that that's not possible. When that's the situation, I'd rather have them on the stims than not.

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Post by Ironman » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:37 am

By any chance are you familiar with Doctor Amen? I thought his book about the different types of ADD was quite interesting. The scans were quite ground breaking at the time.


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Post by Jungledoc » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:17 am

I know I read his writing in the past, but I've been away from it for a long time.

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Post by Proper Knob » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:58 am

Admittedly Doc what i did write was an over-simplification of the issue.

My youngest brother suffers form ADHD, now as he has grown older he seems to have lost many of his childhood symptons. He went from someone who was literally climbing the walls and nearly being put into 'special needs' whilst at school, to achieving well above average grades when he finished, all thanks to Ritalin.

You are correct that we'll never see an expose in a newspaper if a fighter pilot had three cups of coffee before flying a mission. What's the difference? The first glaringly obvious thing to me is that Amphetamine use is illegal!! (It's a class B drug in the UK meaning i can go to prison for a max of 5yrs for possession, 14yrs for supplying)

I can buy coffee, chocolate in my local shop down the road.

Secondly Amphetamine is a psychotropic drug, caffeine isn't. I've taken both and i can tell you from first hand experience that there is a difference between the two.

Thirdly i don't like seeing sentences with the words 'military' and 'drugs' in them. The US, and UK government for that matter, don't have a particularly rosy history when it comes to legal/illegal drugs. I'm thinking Gulf War Syndrome and MK-ULTRA to name a couple.

And an afterthought, one of the reasons getting involved in Afghanistan was to irradicate the Heroin supply. So pilots were using illegal drugs to combat the illegal drug trade?! It's like defending our freedoms by denying our freedoms. It's illogical.

Rant over.

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Post by Ironman » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:43 pm

People with the hyperactive type ADD lose the hyperactivity, but they still retain other type 1 ADD symptoms. The hyperactivity usually just gets channeled in a different way too. They usually go from hyper kids to busy on the go adults.

I'm more like a type 2, which is the spacey kind. Although I do have the hyperfocused one and a couple others too. Like one is either a type of ADD or just OCD combined with add. It's just a label though, otherwise the cause and symptoms appear to be the same.

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Post by Jungledoc » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:25 pm

Good explanation, ferrous male.

It used to be believed that ADHD (then called (Hyperactive Disorder of Childhood) was a condition of childhood only, because most become less hyperactive by their late teens. The attentional problems (which are really the most significant, after all) usually don't go away. Many ADHD people are smart, many get good grades. Some even get them without medication.

Amphetamines may be used in illegal ways, but are not illegal when prescribed by a properly-licensed doctor. I'm sure that the pilots were taking theirs at the order of their flight surgeon, all on the up-and-up. I imagine that there is a protocol for using it, specifying under what circumstances it may or may not be used.
Caffeine is indeed a psychotropic drug. It has different characteristics than the other stimulants, and may not effect everyone in just the same way. It is not particularly potent at the doses commonly used. I don't know what doses of amphetamine, nor which amphetamines you have taken, so I can't really comment on your comparison. It's like saying "amoxacillin and sulfa can't both be antibiotics, because sulfa gives me a rash and amoxacillin doesn't." I've taken amphetamines too, and got nothing at all out of it. It didn't help me as much as a couple of cups of good, dark-roast Jo.

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Post by Ironman » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:34 am

I think it is just that some people have this whole drugs=bad thing hammered into them instead of understanding that they are tools. It's from all that new age ancient wisdom crap. "It's natural and spiritual, man." I just figure hey, hemlock is natural, so that doesn't automatically make it good. And ancient wisdom, like thinking the earth is flat...... I just hope that movement isn't steering us back to the dark ages.

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Post by Jungledoc » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:45 am

Again, I agree.


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