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Weight training to compliment running

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:45 am
by daniel4738
The new year is upon us, I have rested (and ate:D) for the last two weeks following a basic 8-12 week regime which I have built very basic aerobic endurance and strength.

I would like some advice for the new years AR training program which will look approximately like this for the first week.

Mon : AM - Resistance Training. PM - Endurance <90m>90m incl Interval.

Wed : AM - Resistance Training. PM - Endurance < 90m

Thu: Rest Day.

Fri : AM - Resistance Training. PM - Endurance <90> 90, incl intervals

Sun : Rest

The weeks will follow an easy week, medium week, hard week, Easy week with PRs/Tests midweek.

For the 12 weeks, the intervals will be those which build v02max.

However, I am having trouble deciding on a 3 day program. Could someone suggest something.

I have focused on strength the last few weeks, mainly on pull up strength, over head squats and deadlifts and have acheived PRs in all 3 for 1RM.
BW = 72kg.
DL: 2.2xBW (160kg)
OHS: 1.0xBW (72.5kg)
PU: BW+40kg.

Ideally I will focus on building glycogen stores, thus it should be a program focused around little rest.

It will also help to lose another few % body fat.

Can anyone suggest a routine? I was thinking maybe a push day, pull day and Oly lift day.

It would also be nice to get a bit of a beach body for the summer :p

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:19 pm
by KPj
I know this doesn't help much and apologies if it's a stupid question, but I felt I had to ask.

Are you doing all that running because you enjoy it? Or just to lose some fat?

If you enjoy it then I completely respect that. If it's with the aim of improving body composition then I would have to advise you to cut down on the running and we should re-think the approach...


Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:56 pm
by daniel4738
KPj wrote:I know this doesn't help much and apologies if it's a stupid question, but I felt I had to ask.

Are you doing all that running because you enjoy it? Or just to lose some fat?

If you enjoy it then I completely respect that. If it's with the aim of improving body composition then I would have to advise you to cut down on the running and we should re-think the approach...

Oh god no. I am doing the training for Adventure Racing. These are multi day long slow duration events.

I enjoy the weight training about as much as the LSD events.

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:32 pm
by TimD
With your stated goals in mind, why not try some complexes? Short rest breaks, full body moves, etc. Some of coach rut's DB moves could be incorporated, etc. From what I've seen of your posts, you already know about complexes, but if you need ideas, just ask.
There are tons listed on youtube. Just search for BB or DB complex weight training.

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:29 pm
by hoosegow
I know it is nothing close to what you are doing daniel, but in 05 I trained ran a marathon. I found that while I was training for it, I had to give up leg work. Maybe it was because I was too stuborn to back off on the weight, but I found that I had dead legs the next 3 days after I did leg work.

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:57 am
by daniel4738
OK, after a bit of reading and postponement of beginning the program by 1 week (I travel to a meeting most of this week :evil:)

I am considering a hybrid complex/strength (complexes followed by strength) workout which will look like the following:

Barbell Complex (6 exercises, 6 reps).
Bench Press
Upright Row
Shoulder Press
Weighted Chin up

Barbell Complex (6 exercises, 6 reps).
Full Squat
Calf Raise

Gymnastic movements (front lever, Handstand, L hold).
Snatch 3 sets at 40-60% 1RM.
Snatch 3 sets at 80-100% 1RM.

I will block the training into 4 week periods with a light, medium, hard, PR weeks.

week 1: 3x8
week 2: 5x5
week 3: 5x3 (with warmup sets)
week 4: 5x1-2 (with warmup sets)

The friday session with olympic lift and gymnastic work, is more for fun, but progression, is required.

Any thoughts on this? Week 4 is always going to be an easy week (for running and lifting), basically testing, low volume work.

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:59 pm
by pdellorto
That looks good. The only suggestion I would have is that if you're going hard on the complexes, it would make more sense to put them after the strength work. That way your body is fresh for the heavy DLs and squats, and you have already expended some energy when you get to doing the complexes. Then your complexes will be forcing you to dig deeper, where you might just miss a heavy DL because of fatigue.

But it looks good.

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:49 pm
by TimD
I agree w/ Pete on this one.A light run through on a complex will serve well as a general warm up for the heavy stuff, but when using them with moderatly heavy weights, do them after the ME work for a combined strength endurance/ metabolic workout.

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:04 am
by daniel4738
I did a bit of a test week this week, I seem to be able to recover quickly enough to perform the hard three day session.

Oh my god those resistance sessions suck.
By doing the strength training first and keeping rest to less than 60seconds really tired me out, I am guessing this was complete depletion of the ATP-CP energy system and by the time I attempted the 3 set of 6 reps complex, I was close to being sick.

So, another question for the complexes: should I keep the sets the same week to week and increase sets/reps/weight or change it up a bit and do a variety of complexes?

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:15 am
by stuward
If 3 sets of complexes are knocking you out, you have the weight heavy enough. I would try to increase the sets to 6 before putting the weight up. Jovorek likes to alternate reps like 6 reps one time and 3 reps with twice the sets the next time. The volume's the same but it varies the effect.

This is just my opinion of what I think would work. No research behind it.

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:45 am
by hillrunner
New to the board, first post.

I've been running for nearly 28 years...not a marathoner, but, turned in some respectable mile, 5k and 10k times "back in the day".

My recommendation is anyone more focused on running than strength training or balanced workouts should minimize the amount of weight lifting performed as much as possible.

One early coach who helped me with my first PR, told me absolutely NO weights for my lower body. He had learned this from the late Coach Jumbo Elliot who felt that hills, track work and other facets of training naturally provided leg strength. From personal experience, I think he was right.

For the upper body, do a few pushups or dips, do some chinning and perhaps one armed rows along with some medicine ball work. Those exercises will hit the majority of your upper body muscles without adding unwanted weight. Isometrics are a good option--add some strength without 'bulk', per se.

Exceptionally long distance training will require more core strength for endurance along with flexibility. You don't want your hamstrings or calves tying up. So, follow Dr. Stuart McGill's program for core strength and stretching. It is the best thing I've ever found...simple and effective.

Hope that helps.

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:37 pm
by stuward
Hillrunner, welcome to the site. I have to take exception to a couple things you've said. I don't believe the recommendation of No weights is advisable. It may have been the norm 30 years ago but not today. If nothing else, you need to ensure proper balance between quads/hamstrings in order to avoid injury. It's hard to do that without lower body weight training. I would think that there is also a carry over from strong muscles to endurance.

I don't think that strong muscles will be disadvantage to anyone. I'm not talking about big muscles full of water, but strong dense muscle you get from working with heavy weight for low reps, the type of training that builds relative strength. I agree that carrying a lot of body builder type muscle and/or fat is extra baggage but that's not the same thing as training for strength with weights. I think that's essential for anyone doing the type of activity the OP does.

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:41 pm
by hillrunner

Thanks and if I could provide some feedback?

First, with all of the alleged advances in sports and exercise science, the bottom line is a specific, minimalist approach still works best. The very best runners in the distance world--mile to marathon--are the Kenyans, Ethiopians, Europeans and Russians. No Americans, Canadians...our techniques and science simply cannot overcome the plain basics of specific work for the specific task. Kenyan or Russian runners don't do a lot of strength training, for example. They run long, they run consistently, the Africans especially eat a nearly perfect diet with no gels or protein bars and they aren't afraid of work. No shortcuts. :wink: And I can say that it worked for me--put the work in, stretch, recover and go hit it again.

Second, I can assure you that I read, once in a while, the periodicals--both commercial and exercise journals--and check out the latest and greatest in alleged training information. Except for runners now getting caught up in the weight training hype created by the bodybuilding community, there's not a lot of truly new information that has provided any valuable breakthroughs for distance work. (And ultra runners? They need to simply just plan to put the hours & hours of work in for their chose sport.) For the speed & power community--sprinters, discus--that is another story. Improved techniques and application of weight training, definitely. Assuming most of the top sprinters and strength athletes are on steroids, it is clear the difference those minor changes in recovery, form, etc., have delivered.

Next--and please don't take this as an rebuttal against you--what is "proper balance between quads/hamstrings"? I read that all the time but cannot find a single thing that quantifies it. The probable truth? It is the silly reliance on running shoes with gel, air and/or springs in the heels. Wearing shoes like that lifts your heels, shortens the calves (similar to the issue women in high heels experience) and affects the hamstrings.

Drop the high heeled running shoes and start running like we're biomechanically designed and people will see a drop in these issues. Approaches like The Pose and Chi Running along with companies like Newton Running and even New Balance have recognized the more we run close to our natural biomechanics, the better off we are.

To see what I mean, find a soft running path or go to a track. Run barefoot for a while. If you've been running in shoes with elevated heels, you'll feel uncomfortable and awkward. That is because not only are your biomechanics affected, but, your gross and fine motor skills are also used to running with un-natural external influences--the raised heels.

I try to keep my shoes as minimal as possible, keeping in mind that I run on concrete and asphalt. But, looking back, my best running days with virtually no injuries have been when I use what amounts to racing flats or a combo racing/training shoe. My injuries, et al, came when I tried out a pair of shoes with the elevated heels and the problems started.

As for proper strengthening of the leg, if you're running properly biomechanically, half of the battle is won. Add some hills and sprinting to round things out and you're on the right path--not forgetting to include some stretching or yoga (both of which are a form of strength training as well).

Also, please note I didn't completely dismiss weights. I included one-arm dumbbell rows. Since they're done while standing, you can hit the back, posterior deltoid, core, glutes, biceps, forearms, legs, etc., while, at the same time protecting your lower back by stabilizing yourself. (BTW, Dr. Stuart McGill's papers and books on core training, IMHO, are still the most cutting edge around on this subject.)

So, I'd say if you want to run, train like a runner. If you're seeking balance, by all means, weights, running, walking, yoga, et al, is the way to go.

Hope that helps?

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:11 pm
by TimD
Hillrunner, no one is saying NOT to concentrate on rlonger distance running IF that's the goal, and in that case, yes, I would minimalize weights to simply 1 or 2 X week maint, similar to what you stated. HOWEVER, lets keep the OP's stated goals in context. No where did I see he was training for some long distance races.. From what I read, he wants to up his metabolic expenditures with weights by using faster pace workouts, and the complexes hit that goal nicely. IMO he might have a bit too much ME thrown in, but only he can determine that. He's also running for his , as stated, ENDURANCE. OJ, so unless the OP would care to chime in, and state otherwise, I think he has a decent plan laid out, for HIS stated goals.

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:19 pm
by hillrunner

I noticed this from Daniel:
Oh god no. I am doing the training for Adventure Racing. These are multi day long slow duration events.

I enjoy the weight training about as much as the LSD events.
Hence, the reason for my posts. If you're running to be a better runner, then based on what I've learned from people far smarter than me over the years, run. Weight or strength work--pushups, dips, chinning--for the upper body are a nice adjunct. But caution is needed as either may add LBM that isn't needed which has to be lugged around on each and every run or race. Depends on your goals.

Thanks -