My Workout Program

[Charlie]

Taking into account the previous threads about back exercise and compound exercises, I have set up a workout program.

I would like to know your opinions on it.

Should I decreasse/increase the number of sets? exercises? etc.

Thanks.

[Charlie]

imageavenue apprently doesn't work with BBCode...

here's the url for the workout program (jpg format):

http://img9.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc= ... utprog.JPG

Thanks!

[tpxking]

As far as reps go, your plan is good for hypertrophy or power lifting. You may want to consider alternating upper and lower body on a daily basis. example: Upper body: monday, wednesday. Lower body: tues. thurs.

[strathmeyer]

Charlie, I've seen someone try to post that "image" before (not sure if it was you). But the thing linked to isn't an image, it's a webpage, so you can't include it in an [IMG] tag.

[DJDaddyK]

I'm not sure about this. In your upper body program you have:
1) Benches and rows, ie chest/back.
2) Military presses and chin-ups, which is really (front) delts/back.

I think if you are going to do 2 back exercises you should do 2 chest exercises as well - so I'd suggest DIPS instead of military presses. The chest exercises will also work your front delts, and the back exercises will work your rear delts. And then if you want to explicitly work delts maybe do UPRIGHT ROWS (which work the lateral delts) rather than Military presses (which as I said work the front delts). I think thats better balanced - its certainly more in line with the basic ExRx workout templates. But that means no Military Press, which is a wonderful exercise, so I'm not sure...

Steve

[DubDub]

I'd add deadlift to your oly lifting day, it seems a bit slight as it is. Also, no shrugging...? Jump shrugs, hang shrugs, or just normal shrugs could each improve the workout I think. In general though it looks great.

[Ryan A]

I dont think there is a need to do 2 chest exercises. The back has many more muscles than the chest and therefore the back needs more attention. Also, you should balance push/pull in general not necessarily individual muscles. Looking at the balance at a joint is a way to analyze and prevent injury.

Pullups are really Lats so you are basically doing Chest/General back and then shoulders (front and side) and lats.

As to adding deadlifts on the olympic day. I say you have plenty on that day and if anything I would take stuff away from the other days or perhaps trade a front squat for a deadlift on one day. Cleans and snatches work much the same motion as deadlifts although the groove is indeed a bit different.

5 sets of all those exercises looks like a killer so I wouldnt worry about adding anything to any of the days.

I assume you take longer rest breaks on the olympic day so I believe they could all balance out to a similar workout time. Even if the olympic workout is shorter, there is no need to worry about it and you can probably enjoy the extra recovery.

[DJDaddyK]

Also, you should balance push/pull in general not necessarily individual muscles.

Well surely you don't mean this. I've seen perfectly balanced push / pull programs where guys are only doing chest and biceps - obviously not good, and not what you meant I am sure.
The problem I see here (if you do 2 backs 1 chest and 1 military press) is that this could lead to a muscle imbalance. Here is why:
-Rows and pullups work primarily back, secondarily rear delt and biceps.
-Bench press works primarily chest but also front delts and triceps.
-Military press works primarily front delts but also chest and triceps.
If you assign 1 point for primary and 1/2 point for secondary work, you get:
- Back 2, Rear delts 1, biceps 1
- Chest 1.5, Front delts 1.5, trceps 1
In other words, not only is your back getting more work than your chest, but your front delts are getting more work than your rears.
I'm sure it (points) doesn't work exactly that way but I still wonder if this could cause a problem long term....
Steve

[Mog16]

I haven't heard a whole lot about problems caused by a back heavy imbalance (far more frequent is a chest heavy imbalance that is probably 4-5 points chest to 2 points back). I wonder if O (or another person in the exercise physiology know how) could address potential problems from a back heavy imbalance?

[Charlie]

Thanks guys!

I changed some of the program... using Friday as an example:



what do you think of that?

This program makes sure that I'm targeting every part of my shoulder, and putting extra emphasis on my biceps, which are lagging behind.

[Ryan A]

Well, first of all, you quoted me completely out of context since I immediately followed that up with push/pull across a joint.

IE. biceps and bench press do not count as push pull because they do not move the same joint.

So yes, I do mean what I said.

So my question to you is, why do you think you should train chest and back equally? What problems does too much chest training cause? Is it the chest that affects the shoulder and thus creates shoulder problems? No, it is the front deltoid. As such, you should be looking at what exercises work the front deltoid, not worry about the chest since the problem never arises from guys having too strong of chest, it comes from having too strong of front deltoids.

Looked at it like this, the military press provides as much balance to the program for the shoulder as one possible could, probably working the front deltoid more than the bench press.

As per your analysis, you can see the front delts getting more work than the rear delts. This is precisely the problem in I would imagine 90% of lifters.

Long term, military press is probably a much safer exercise than bench press.

[Charlie]

Thanks guys!

I changed some of the program... using Friday as an example:

http://img121.imagevenue.com/img.php?lo ... ogram.JPG
what do you think of that?

This program makes sure that I'm targeting every part of my shoulder, and putting extra emphasis on my biceps, which are lagging behind.

[DJDaddyK]

Well, first of all, you quoted me completely out of context since I immediately followed that up with push/pull across a joint.

Ryan
Sorry it looked that way. I said "I'm sure thats not what you meant." I was just trying to give an example of a badly balanced push / pull. My bad...
At any rate, I agree with you, you should balance across the joint. Which is why I think you should do a chest movement for each back movement. The problem isn't so much the actual chest or back, its what gets worked along with chest and back. Chest almost always works front delts and triceps in addition to pecs. Back almost always works rear delts and biceps in addition to back. So balancing across chest and back means you also balance delts and arms. Substituting a delt exercise for a chest exercise here throws that balance off - you will end up doing more front than rear delt work. Can that lead to a problem long term? I dont really know but I think so...
Steve

[DJDaddyK]

This program makes sure that I'm targeting every part of my shoulder, and putting extra emphasis on my biceps, which are lagging behind.

Charlie
I didnt say I think you need to explicitly work every part of your shoulder. In fact since chest and back exercises work the shoulder already you can really consider shoulder work optional (as the full body workout templates on this site suggest - if you havent read them you should - http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Instructions.html).
Anyway, now it looks like you have:
1) Bench press - great, chest, push
2) Rear delt row - to "balance" shoulder work I suppose - but I would suggest a standard row instead, to hit your back and balance the bench press
3) Close grip pull ups - OK, lat work, good. But I would do another push in there before this one to keep the push pull theme going. Either a dip or a military press would seem ideal.
4) Curl - ok you want to emphasize biceps
5) Lateral raise - OK, you want to do some extra delt work. I would move this before the curls (bigger muscles first), and if you do military presses I would say you shouldnt even do these.
Also if you are doing an "extra" pull (biceps) I would suggest you start with pulling, so that you can alternate pushing and pulling. So, it might look something like this:
- Row; Bench; Close chins; Dip; Curl (back/chest/back/chest/biceps) or
- Row; Bench; Close chins; Mil press; Curl (back/chest/back/delts/biceps) or
- Bench; Row; Dip; Close chins; Mil press; Curl (chest/back/chest/back/delts/biceps) or even just
- Bench; Chins; Mil press; Curls (which is 1 exercise for each major body part, plus your curls)
There is no single right answer here. Check those templates and see what you think...
Steve

[Ryan A]

Well you just said this

"Back almost always works rear delts and biceps in addition to back."

If this is true then you are getting two rear delt exercises and now you are getting 2 front delt exercises with bench and military press.

I mean you say you can balance across the chest and back but anatommically, looking at the shoulder joint, you could just as easily do two front delt exercises and no chest exercises and achieve the same balance across the shoulder.