Cable Standing Fly vs. Cable Crossover?

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Matt Z
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Post by Matt Z » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:30 pm

So your workouts are Delts/Biceps/Abs, Back/Traps/Forearms/Abs, Chest/Triceps/Abs and Legs/Obliques/Abs? Training Delts and Biceps together seems a little random. Meanwhile, I don't think it's such a good idea to train Back just a day or two after Delts and Biceps.


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Post by Matt Z » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:35 pm

Also, I've noticed a lot of redundancy in your workout. For example, decline and flat-bench presses both work the same muscle groups, so there's no reason to do both in the same workout.

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Post by Matt Z » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:46 pm

I used to use a bodybuilder style split routine, and I got good results from it for a while. However, I've learned since then that I can get better results doing fewer exercise per workout, and little or no isolation work.

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Post by Ironman » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:44 am

I agree with Matt, and had the same experience.

You can't do shoulders or arms before chest and back. Your cooking the weak links before you do your compound stuff.

A better 4 day split would be

chest and upper/mid back

shoulders and arms

quads, calves

hams, lower back. abs


You need 2 leg days if you are going to do a lot of squats and deadlifts.

Of course upper/lower twice a week is even better.

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Post by Matt Z » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:51 am

"5. Upright Row (dumbbell) - looking for a replacement for this one due to the controversy surrounding it." - Porovoz

You might want to try these ...

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... aises.html


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Re: Cable Standing Fly vs. Cable Crossover?

Post by quadfrog » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:14 pm

Stephen Johnson wrote:Crossovers aren't a mass or strength building exercise - they're something that you throw in at the end of a chest workout. Or they can be done as a warmup. They aren't a substitute for presses.
I tend to agree, Steve, and now I have to beg the question: Would the pec deck be more effective, as useless as, or worse than the Cable Crossover, assuming you were doing cable crossovers as an alternative to flys.

The resent I present this is that the peck deck has refused to go away from the gym landscape.

Thanks

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Post by Ironman » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:43 am

The pec dec has got to be the lamest chest exercise ever invented. I'd even take cable crossovers over that.

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Post by quadfrog » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:12 pm

Agree...it's gets the prize for being lame. I like to sit backwards in it, though, and do rear delts. As for pecs, it wouldn't even help your kitty with the sagging titties:)

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Re: Cable Standing Fly vs. Cable Crossover?

Post by Stephen Johnson » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:31 pm

quadfrog wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote:Crossovers aren't a mass or strength building exercise - they're something that you throw in at the end of a chest workout. Or they can be done as a warmup. They aren't a substitute for presses.
I tend to agree, Steve, and now I have to beg the question: Would the pec deck be more effective, as useless as, or worse than the Cable Crossover, assuming you were doing cable crossovers as an alternative to flys.
Actually, the pec deck is the best way to train the transverse adduction articulation of the shoulder. Plus, since the arms aren't extended, you can use more weight with a pec deck than with cable crossovers.
quadfrog wrote:The resent I present this is that the peck deck has refused to go away from the gym landscape.
In my gym chain, pec deck machines have been vanishing over the last couple of years. The few that remain are getting old.

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Post by Ironman » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:08 pm

The thing is, you can work those muscles without using that articulation. If you really wanted to do it you can use dumbbells too. Same thing with rear flys, you can use dumbbells. Or just do the rear delt row. If you isolate them at all.

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Post by Porovoz » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:46 pm

Stephen Johnson wrote: Speaking for myself, I recommend lowering your bodyfat to 10-12% or below. Without a low bodyfat percentage, you won't get muscular definition.

If you have suitable mass in your pecs, removing the covering fat will reveal them. Cable crossovers neither build mass or remove fat to any great degree.
I just recently got under the 10% barrier again, but the same problem persists. There is significant mass in my pectorals and always has been even without training, but the "incline" from the sternum to the nipple is very gradual. Thus I want to somehow stimulate the portion of my pec closest to the centre of my chest.

Stephen Johnson wrote:@Porovoz:

I'm biased against high volume, bodybuilder-type split routines, so I will recuse myself from commenting about your routine. My personal feelings about bodybuilder split routines notwithstanding, a lot of folks do them. Some folks make progress with those type of routines. If your routine is giving you the results that you want (other than chest definition), then continue using it.

What are your training goals?
Why are you biased against high volume routines? It's hard to say whether this routine has given me the results I want since I have been doing it for under 6 months, but it has given me *some* results. As for my training goals: I recently got out of amateur wrestling, so since I no longer have to worry about weight classes and strength-to-weight ratio, to be perfectly honest, I want to put on some extra superficial muscle. :P

Matt Z wrote:So your workouts are Delts/Biceps/Abs, Back/Traps/Forearms/Abs, Chest/Triceps/Abs and Legs/Obliques/Abs? Training Delts and Biceps together seems a little random. Meanwhile, I don't think it's such a good idea to train Back just a day or two after Delts and Biceps.
The problem is that I have no predefined schedule of rest days on which I do cardio. Ergo, the amount of time in between day2 and day3 is exactly the same as in between day4 and day1, since I just cycle through the days continuously. The best I can do is set the overlapping muscle groups a day apart, ie on day1 and day3.

Matt Z wrote:Also, I've noticed a lot of redundancy in your workout. For example, decline and flat-bench presses both work the same muscle groups, so there's no reason to do both in the same workout.
I was under the impression there was considerable benefit from stimulating a muscle group as large as the pectorals from different angles...

Matt Z wrote: You might want to try these ...

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... aises.html
Tried every documented variant of the lateral raise - none of them feel "right" save for the incline that I already have in my routine. :sad:

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Post by Porovoz » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:59 pm

My updated routine:

Day 1
1. Shoulder Press (dumbbell)
2. Seated Rear Lateral Raise (lever)
3. Incline Lateral Raise (dumbbell)
4. Front Raise (dumbbell)
5. One Arm Rear Delt Row (cable)
6. Front Lateral Raise (dumbbell)
7. Skull Crusher (barbell)
8. Close Grip Bench Press (barbell)
9. Pushdown [+ one arm] (cable)
*. Thee different exercises for abs.

Day 2
1. Iso-Lateral Low Row (lever)
2. Front Pulldown (cable)
3. Straight Back Seated Row (cable)
4. Straight Arm Pulldown (cable)
5. Shrug (barbell)
6. Deadlift (barbell)
7. Wrist Curl (barbell)
8. Reverse Wrist Curl (barbell)
9. Hammer Curl (dumbbell)
*. Thee different exercises for abs.

Day 3
1. Bench Press (dumbbell)
2. Incline Bench Press (dumbbell)
3. Decline Bench Press (dumbbell or barbell)
4. Pullover (dumbbell)
5. Standing Fly/Crossover (cable)
6. Low Fly (cable)
7. Curl (barbell)
8. Concentration Curl (dumbbell)
9. Incline Shoulder Raise (dumbbell)
*. Thee different exercises for abs.

Day 4
1. Squat (barbell)
2. 45° Leg Press (sled)
3. Lying Leg Curl (lever)
4. Leg Extension (lever)
5. Hip Abduction (cable)
6. Hip Adduction (cable)
7. Horizontal Calf Extension (lever)
8. Seated Calf Raise (lever)
9. Tibia Dorsi Flexion (lever)
*. Thee different exercises for abs.

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Post by quadfrog » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:35 pm

Porovoz wrote:Oh, no worries guys... more general advice is always appreciated. After all, I volunteered my chest routine for discussion by posting what it was. If you'd like to pick apart my entire workout - I see far more good in it than harm!
I don't mean to sound condescending here, but is that routine for one person....or do you divide it up between yourself and two friends you work out with?

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Post by Matt Z » Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:08 pm

" was under the impression there was considerable benefit from stimulating a muscle group as large as the pectorals from different angles..." - Porovoz

Only in you're targeting different heads of a muscle group. For example, incline presses target the upper pectorals, while flat-bench and decline presses BOTH target the lower pectorals. It doesn't make sense to include both flat-bench and decline presses in the same workout because the two exercises are simply too similar. Likewise it wouldn't make sense to do a flat-bench barbell press and flat-bench dumbbell press in the same workout.

The only exception would be if you did standard flat-bench presses with close-grip declines, or vice versa ... and even then flat-bench, inclines and close-grips in the same workout is a lot of benching.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:46 pm

Porovoz wrote:Why are you biased against high volume routines?
Because they are an inefficient use of training time. Doing two or more exercises in a workout that targets muscles essentially the same way is a waste of time.

You might want to take a look at this thread for more along that line. But like I said before, it's my personal bias against high volume routines. Most of the people that I've seen using them confuse working long with working hard.


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