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Cable Standing Fly vs. Cable Crossover?

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:50 pm
by Porovoz
Hello!

Is there any significant difference between the exercise listed on the site:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Pec ... ngFly.html

And what appears to be a more popular [undocumented] alternative:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUD-UwUjLv0

Cheers.

Re: Cable Standing Fly vs. Cable Crossover?

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:52 am
by Stephen Johnson
Porovoz wrote:Hello!

Is there any significant difference between the exercise listed on the site:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Pec ... ngFly.html

And what appears to be a more popular [undocumented] alternative:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUD-UwUjLv0

Cheers.
The You Tube version has the trainer leaning forward slightly with one foot placed in front of the other. That puts him in a better stretch position to start the exercise. But since it's hard to use real weight on cable crossovers, it probably doesn't make much difference. Crossovers aren't a mass or strength building exercise - they're something that you throw in at the end of a chest workout. Or they can be done as a warmup. They aren't a substitute for presses.

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:51 pm
by Matt Z
To be honest I wouldn't really recommend either, but if you're going to do cable crossovers I'd recomend the exrx version. The youtube version looks akward with a fair amount of shoulder rotation.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:58 am
by Porovoz
Really? I read here (http://www.fitnessuncovered.co.uk/exerc ... le_fly.php) that it offered tension through a greater range of motion than the traditional dumbbell fly and was otherwise recommended it. What do you guys suggest instead for adding definition in between the pectorals? My current chest routine is:

-Bench Press (dumbbell)
-Incline Bench Press (dumbbell)
-Decline Bench Press (dumbbell or barbell)
-Pullover
-Standing Cable Fly/Cable Crossover
-Low Cable Fly

...all 3-4 sets of 10 reps or to failure, whichever comes first.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:07 am
by Stephen Johnson
Porovoz wrote: What do you guys suggest instead for adding definition in between the pectorals? .
Speaking for myself, I recommend lowering your bodyfat to 10-12% or below. Without a low bodyfat percentage, you won't get muscular definition.

If you have suitable mass in your pecs, removing the covering fat will reveal them. Cable crossovers neither build mass or remove fat to any great degree.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:36 pm
by Matt Z
So you're doing six different chest exercises for a total of 18-24 sets in the same workout. That's way to much.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:16 am
by KPj
Matt Z wrote:So you're doing six different chest exercises for a total of 18-24 sets in the same workout. That's way to much.
I can testify to that. * rubs shoulder *

Seriously. My old 'chest days' had 24-ish sets and 6-ish exercises. Chest days are like some sort of addiction.


KPj

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:46 am
by Stephen Johnson
KPj wrote:
Matt Z wrote:So you're doing six different chest exercises for a total of 18-24 sets in the same workout. That's way to much.
I can testify to that. * rubs shoulder *

Seriously. My old 'chest days' had 24-ish sets and 6-ish exercises. Chest days are like some sort of addiction.


KPj
I wasn't going to bring it up, but it's a good point. That chest workout is overkill. It looks like a bodybuilder chest routine.

It's a safe bet that the OP's leg and back workouts aren't nearly as long.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:14 am
by brook011
haha my shoulder hurts after the last workout i did with my new workout. 100 reps and my left shoulder hurts :( maybe im just getting old.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:01 pm
by KPj
Stephen Johnson wrote: I wasn't going to bring it up, but it's a good point. That chest workout is overkill. It looks like a bodybuilder chest routine.

It's a safe bet that the OP's leg and back workouts aren't nearly as long.
I never really know whether to say anything or not either. On one hand, I trained exactly the same way and suffered the consequences, probably a worse case scenario, but still, I have first hand experience of what can happen if you train like that for long enough. On the other hand I hate to scare monger people - Mistakes are how we learn... On another hand the OP wasn't asking for advice on his whole training program. On my other other (now on my fourth) hand, when I first came on this forum, many moons ago, I defended that way of training quite stubbornly. I read the great advice I got but I never followed it until I was pretty much screwed.

KPj

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:04 pm
by pdellorto
KPj wrote:I never really know whether to say anything or not either.
...
I read the great advice I got but I never followed it until I was pretty much screwed.
I think most of us have been there. I do feel bad sometimes. People come with a simple question and we turn it into a whole discussion of their entire diet and exercise routine.

But I suspect that's the nature of forums in general, and workout advice in specific. If someone is asking about cable crossovers or dumbbell flies or which curl is best, you immediately suspect a routine like "chest day, arms day, legs if I have time."

We all need to hear the advice, though. It's tough to listen because you will get results by working hard on a bad program, or even on a good program that's just not what you need anymore. When I got here, the regulars told me I needed to go to more sets and lower reps. I protested that what I had had been working for a long time and was working now...but they were right. It got me to where I was, but I needed to change to make more and better progress. It's tough to check your ego at the door when people say "Your routine sucks." Even if they do it nicely, and if even if you specifically for criticism.

So I never know if I should jump in and say "You're asking the wrong question - it's not cable curls vs. concentration curls. It's the rest of your routine and your diet, and then either curl will do..." Am I being helpful or a pain in the ass? Often the OP has a legitimate question, and "you should squat and eat more" isn't a useful answer.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:38 pm
by Ironman
I just tell people straight up. If they ask about exercises like that, I just say I'd rather watch a movie or something. It is a much more pleasant way to waste time.

I think bodybuilders usually just waste most of their time. They get the job done the first couple exercises and then waste time the rest of the day. The only reason they can keep going is because cable kickbacks don't take much out of you.

I'm a bodybuilder who doesn't like to waste time. I go to the gym, lift hard and heavy and go home. You don't grow at the gym. It's done at home eating and sleeping.


But to answer the question, it is dumbbell flys. Here is how you use them. While trying to get your chest bigger, for a short period of time, you do a set of dumbbell or barbell press of some kind and then when you get close to failure, you stop and grab a pair of dumbbells and do flys.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:43 pm
by Porovoz
Oh, no worries guys... more general advice is always appreciated. After all, I volunteered my chest routine for discussion by posting what it was. If you'd like to pick apart my entire workout - I see far more good in it than harm!

I've slowly developed my routine over the past six months based primarily off what the guy who has taken over training me does (he has 35 years of weight training under his belt and is in fantastic shape), mixed in with the advice of other friends, considerations as to what seems to work me, and information from ExRx. I feel fairly good about it at the moment, but I am still relatively new to the discipline and think that a routine is always a work in progress as it were!

Day 1
1. Shoulder Press (dumbbell)
2. Incline Lateral Raise (dumbbell)
3. Seated Rear Lateral Raise (lever)
4. Front Raise (dumbbell)
5. Upright Row (dumbbell) - looking for a replacement for this one due to the controversy surrounding it.
6. One Arm Rear Delt Row (cable)
7. Front Lateral Raise (dumbbell)
8. Curl (barbell)
9. Concentration Curl (dumbbell)
*. Thee different exercises for abs.

Day 2
1. Iso-Lateral Low Row (lever)
2. Front Pulldown (cable)
3. Straight Back Seated Row (cable)
4. Straight Arm Pulldown (cable)
5. Shrug (barbell)
6. Deadlift (barbell)
7. Wrist Curl (barbell)
8. Reverse Wrist Curl (barbell)
9. Hammer Curl (dumbbell)
*. Thee different exercises for abs.

Day 3
1. Bench Press (dumbbell)
2. Incline Bench Press (dumbbell)
3. Decline Bench Press (dumbbell or barbell)
4. Pullover (dumbbell)
5. Standing Fly/Crossover (cable)
6. Low Fly (cable)
7. Incline Shoulder Raise (dumbbell)
8. Bench Dip - having problems with this one, so considering a switch to Skull Crusher (barbell)
9. Pushdown (cable)
*. Thee different exercises for abs.

Day 4
1. Squat (barbell)
2. 45° Leg Press (sled)
3. Seated Leg Curl (lever)
4. Lying Leg Curl (lever)
5. Hip Adduction (cable)
6. Horizontal Calf Extension (lever)
7. Seated Calf Raise (lever)
8. Tibia Dorsi Flexion (lever)
9. Twist (lever)
*. Thee different exercises for abs.

As with chest, all exercises are 3-4 sets of 10 reps or to failure. I try to go to the gym daily, with no predefined rest period. But my schedule is busy enough for me to usually get a day break somewhere within the rotation. I finish my workout well within an hour, so it's not overly time consuming. And I don't feel any soreness or muscle fatigue whatsoever apart from legs, which sets in about 2 days after I do them.

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:06 pm
by Stephen Johnson
@Porovoz:

I'm biased against high volume, bodybuilder-type split routines, so I will recuse myself from commenting about your routine. My personal feelings about bodybuilder split routines notwithstanding, a lot of folks do them. Some folks make progress with those type of routines. If your routine is giving you the results that you want (other than chest definition), then continue using it.

What are your training goals?

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:00 am
by Proper Knob
Let me get this right, you do 9 exercises for 3 or 4 sets. That's a minimum of 27 sets and a maximum of 36 sets..........all done in well under an hour?!

Iim not far off 36 sets for the week!!!