roundback deadlift

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blahman123
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roundback deadlift

Post by blahman123 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:57 pm

i saw it a while ago on exrx but now i cant find it, can anyone be so kind as to link me to it?


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Stephen Johnson
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Re: roundback deadlift

Post by Stephen Johnson » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:30 pm

blahman123 wrote:i saw it a while ago on exrx but now i cant find it, can anyone be so kind as to link me to it?
There is no 'roundback deadlift' exercise - perhaps you had the straight leg deadlift in mind.

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Post by frigginwizard » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:02 am

http://www.exrx.net/Questions/Dangerous ... chor416052
Towards the bottom of this page references are made to a straight leg deadlift with a rounded back.

*edit
It should be noted that the reference is on a page called "Dangerous Exercises"

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Post by TimD » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:14 am

Stephen's link is about as close as you will get. The demonstrator is showing some rounding down towards the bottom. As to actual spine flexing, well, big debate on that one. Some coaches (Hatfield, Starr, Askem, Javorek) actually promote it with light weights to build up the smaller intrinsic muscles surrounding the spine, while others absolutely abhor it. I think your best bet is to avoid it. Time for KPJ to chime in with a rant on how terrible it is, and he makes a lot of good points with verywell documented references.
Tim

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Post by KPj » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:35 am

I must admit I had been waiting on this thread becoming a 'rounded back lifting vs no rounded back lifting' debate, but I didn't want to jump in and start it myself :grin:

References and sciencey stuff aside, for me, it just makes sense that you shouldn't lift with a rounded back. It's something that can be debated all day, but i've yet to see someone answer the following - why can't I round on a squat? Why tell me to do rounded back DLs (or whatever) but then tell me it's 'wrong' to round my lower back in a squat. Why does it matter if I round in a squat if there's no danger with rounding? Makes no sense to me. Staying on the whole common sense route, typically, when it comes to rounding the back, your taking focus off the hips/glutes/hamstrings. I personally would much rather my glutes took the load than, err, my vertebrae.

That along with (most of) my preferred group of coaches recommending the same is ultimately why I feel so strongly about it. Well, actually, Dr Stuart McGills book (Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance) is also another strong reason.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of people who I read loads of stuff from are all for it. Westside/Elitefts for one - rounded back pull throughs and good mornings are examples. You just need to make your own mind up.

KPj

p.s As I get older and wiser (ha), i'm becoming of the opinion that, if I had to choose between rounded back lifting, and sitting in flexion most of the day, plus, moving around using flexion (rounding) all the time when picking things up off the floor and things like that, I would actually choose rounded back lifting. If I remember correctly, too, Dr Stuart McGill actually has research to suggest that most back injuries occur from LOW LOAD flexion, like picking up a pencil, as opposed to picking up something heavy (like rounded back DL). This suggests that repeated low load flexion could be more of a risk than anything. I'm of the slightly more objective opinion now that, if you don't excessively round during the day at work and home, or elsehwere, then the odd - as I call it - 'disc bulger' in the gym (i.e. when your back rounds on a DL) won't kill you.


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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:44 am

I know for some loads - round stones, heavy sandbags, etc., you have to round your back - there isn't any way to get a "proper" setup to get them off the ground.


I've seen a few powerlifters (and Strongmen) who deadlift with a rounded back. My understanding of this, though, is that the idea is to start with a rounded back and keep it that way - you don't flex it under pressure. You either deadlift with a neutral back position or with an arched back, and keep it that way for the entire lift. It's the shifting under load that's the problem. Again, as I understand it.

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Post by KPj » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:13 pm

I know some sports require it. I'm sure i don't need to tell you, but MMA or kind of combat normally involves flexion (well, it can't be avoided). But you have the old argument of - well, boxers get hit in the head in a fight, so should we hit them in the head when training them?

At my local PL club, more than half of the lifters (which is erm, about 5) lift with a rounded back. They 'just lift' - no reasoning behind it, as far as i'm aware. I, and 2 others, are referred to as 'technical lifters', because we don't round. Although when I get to max weights, my upper back will round slightly. Interestingly, it's the old timers (who lift with a rounded back) who teach these 14-16 yearolds, and they tell them off for rounding. Again, just makes no sense to me. I've not asked why the contradiction - do as i say, not as i do. I've not actually been in months, but when I go, it's just for people to lift with that'll push me so I set my preferences aside. And I don't want, you know, hit in the face with an O bar or anything.

KPj

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Post by Blue Running Man » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:28 pm

I feel like when my lower back goes into flexion, the erectors become deactivated. This shifts the load off the bigger spinal erectors to the smaller muscles of the spine, and the ligaments.

As someone with lower back pain, I find that if I can keep my core contracted, stabilizing my spine, keeping the tension on the muscles themselves, not the ligaments. I suffer no pain.

It's when the core muscles stop functioning, that problems occur.

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:29 pm

KPj wrote: But you have the old argument of - well, boxers get hit in the head in a fight, so should we hit them in the head when training them?
It's risks to rewards, really. Boxers get hit in the head all the time when they train, they just try to avoid as much as possible because the payoff ("toughening against head blows") is lower than the risk ("certain brain damage.")

On the other hand, kickboxers toughen their shins by repeatedly striking them into objects, and blocking kicks with them. Hurts like hell, but the reward (a tough shin, resistance to accidental breaks or breaking on a blocked kick) is better than the risk (breaking the shin in training).

So the question with round-backed lifting is - does it injure you more practicing it than when it happens anyway, or does it train your body more to resist injury when it happens anyway? If you train flat-backed only, will that carry over when you lift a lighter, more awkward weight with a rounded back...or do you specifically need to train that motion?

We just had this discussion come up with core training. MMA features a fair amount of sitting up and crunching against resistance...but does it make sense to train it or train the opposite to prevent injury when it happens?

I don't know...I just know opinions vary a lot.

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Post by KPj » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:06 pm

Yoo haves some good points.

Anyway, all that aside, Blue Running Man brought up a good point. What exactly happens when you round the back during lifting? In theory, your glutes, hamstrings, and abs/obliques take less of the force. Simple physics tells us the force has to go somewhere - so where does it go? My thoughts is that the spine/ligaments start taking the load. In my opinion, rounding the back during lifting is pretty much the same as the knees caving in on a squat, which is really just the glutes giving up and, hello ligaments and cartiladge....
pdellorto wrote: So the question with round-backed lifting is - does it injure you more practicing it than when it happens anyway, or does it train your body more to resist injury when it happens anyway? If you train flat-backed only, will that carry over when you lift a lighter, more awkward weight with a rounded back...or do you specifically need to train that motion?
Personally I don't believe you need to train in that motion. I like to think of any movement at the lower back as a 'reserve' of movement. I don't believe you need to train the lower back in flexion in order to get a strong core or abs.

When it comes to training people like MMA guys, I really don't feel comfortable commenting. I want to say, "hey, you guys round your back under load enough during competition, so you won't be doing it when we lift, instead, we'll strengthen your core/abs in other ways, like, lifting heavy things". I really want to say, "hey, last fight, a spinning back kick to the face knocked you out. Therefore, this session, we're going to perform various kicks to your face until you dam well stay awake and keep fighting!" - that's pretty much how I feel about training the lower back in flexion. It would be like you training to take kicks in the face better than you have been. I would much rather you just learned how to get out of the way better, ya know... But the reason i don't feel comfortable commenting, is because I don't train athletes, so take that with a 'punch' of salt!

KPj

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:17 pm

KPj wrote:When it comes to training people like MMA guys, I really don't feel comfortable commenting. I want to say, "hey, you guys round your back under load enough during competition, so you won't be doing it when we lift, instead, we'll strengthen your core/abs in other ways, like, lifting heavy things".
That sentiment is echoed here, by Dewey Neilson

http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/new ... h%2C+2009/

Scroll down to the 5th question and his answer.

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Post by KPj » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:27 am

Just read that. To quote from the interview

"The spine only has so many cycles of flexion available before something bad happens"

What a great way of explaining it.

KPj


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