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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:41 pm
by Ironman
I don't understand this at all. What the hell are you people doing with those bars to make plates slide off?! Do you grease the ends and then lift one side at a time? I might have a plate move as much as an inch. Then I just push back after the set. I can see the need maybe if you are doing really light explosive stuff. Or if you have a curl bar with short ends. One handed lifts would be another application. MAYBE very close grip stuff. But for the most part I don't see what the problem is. On most lifts, if the plates can slide off, you are doing something VERY wrong.

Not putting collars on is just a little lazy. You don't need them 90% of the time. Now doing the lifts wrong.... THAT is stupidity.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:09 pm
by Skull_Crusher
Ironman wrote:I don't understand this at all. What the hell are you people doing with those bars to make plates slide off?! Do you grease the ends and then lift one side at a time? I might have a plate move as much as an inch. Then I just push back after the set. I can see the need maybe if you are doing really light explosive stuff. Or if you have a curl bar with short ends. One handed lifts would be another application. MAYBE very close grip stuff. But for the most part I don't see what the problem is. On most lifts, if the plates can slide off, you are doing something VERY wrong.

Not putting collars on is just a little lazy. You don't need them 90% of the time. Now doing the lifts wrong.... THAT is stupidity.
Thats what im wondering lol...im like you, maybe moves an inch at the MOST.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:27 pm
by pdellorto
Ironman wrote:I don't understand this at all. What the hell are you people doing with those bars to make plates slide off?!
Sometimes it's bad equipment. Uneven holes in the plates can cause a little shimmying. If you're walking out a squat, you're going to get a little bar shaking and might lose the balance a little. That'll cause the plates to creep a little. Same thing on a deadlift - if the plates aren't drilled right, they may "walk" a little each time you set them down to a dead stop. Enough little walks on one side vs. the other and you've got a grip on the weight that isn't even, and your body needs to compensate.
Also, sometimes people - including me, especially, with my bad right shoulder - will get an uneven lockout on a maximal bench press or shoulder press. If that happens and the plates aren't secure, they can slide a little and change it from a problem to a disaster. With really good gear and pulls, it's not a big problem.

Plus I never dump weights by shaking them off the bar. I'd always rather drop the bar, shrug it off and duck out from under, or just set it down on myself and roll it off. If I had to ditch it to the side, I don't see how hard it could be to just tilt the weights to one side and let it fall sideways with the plates still on. I did that at least once with a bench press I didn't want to roll down my body, and it wasn't a problem. At least I didn't get a sudden weight shift; I could just pick one side to ditch to and rock the bar down on that side. After that I stuck with rolling it down my body.

So putting the collars on vs. keeping them off - why keep them off? Leaving them off doesn't give me any extra options, but in a bad situation they help me out. I just don't see any problems from using them.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:58 pm
by nygmen
Ironman wrote:I don't understand this at all. What the hell are you people doing with those bars to make plates slide off?!
I use them on Squats and deads. (And hang cleans or Jerks if I do them)

Apparently I waddle the weight out instead of walking it out on a squat. I've had a 45 slide a few inches before, kind of scared me a bit. And when I come out of the hole and lockout the weights often rattle and bounce on the bar, sometimes shifting outward.

On deadlifts, it is pure paranoia. I don't want the weight shifting on me if I fail at form, and it makes the noise slightly less during the controlled drop of the weight.

On the clean and jerks, it's just, well, because I'm swinging around the bar like a wildman, and it is a self preservation thing.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:51 pm
by hoosegow
Some equipment is just crap Ironman. I've been to gyms with really slick bars and the weight slides.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:04 pm
by ironmaiden708
I don't understand this at all. What the hell are you people doing with those bars to make plates slide off?! Do you grease the ends and then lift one side at a time? I might have a plate move as much as an inch. Then I just push back after the set. I can see the need maybe if you are doing really light explosive stuff. Or if you have a curl bar with short ends. One handed lifts would be another application. MAYBE very close grip stuff. But for the most part I don't see what the problem is. On most lifts, if the plates can slide off, you are doing something VERY wrong.

Not putting collars on is just a little lazy. You don't need them 90% of the time. Now doing the lifts wrong.... THAT is stupidity.
My power bar at my house is slick but that is because it's very new so no rust caked up on it yet to add some grip.[/quote]

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:32 pm
by pdellorto
nygmen wrote:On the clean and jerks, it's just, well, because I'm swinging around the bar like a wildman, and it is a self preservation thing.
Heh. I'm imagining a barbell Turkish get-up with no collars. You better be good!

Seriously, it takes a couple seconds to put them on, and you look far less stupid clipping them on than you do dropping a plate. :)

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:58 pm
by Matt Z
"Not wearing a seatbelt is downright stupid you gain no benefits by not wearing it other than getting out of your car 2 seconds faster." - ironmaiden708

Actually, ... it could be a lot less than 2 seconds in an accident. :-(

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:10 pm
by Matt Z
In my experience, the equipment makes a huge difference. Some barbells have smoth ends and some plates fit more loosely than others. Also, barbells DO flex under heavy loads. Consequently, plates can slip, even if you hold the bar completely level. Finally, collars eliminate, or at least reduce, the side-to-side rattle of plates. I always use collars when I lift.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:13 pm
by quadfrog
In my thirty years of barbell training, I've seen a lots of really dumb people get very big and strong by lifting heavy things without collars:)

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:17 am
by ironmaiden708
Matt Z wrote:"Not wearing a seatbelt is downright stupid you gain no benefits by not wearing it other than getting out of your car 2 seconds faster." - ironmaiden708

Actually, ... it could be a lot less than 2 seconds in an accident. :-(
Well now that you put it that way...

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:23 am
by Rik-Blades
Mind you, lifting with the collars on means you're lifting slightly more than the guy who doesn't put the collars on.

So there's a benefit right there! :P

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:30 am
by KPj
When I work up to my working weight for squats and DL's, I don't use collars. Just lazyness really. If i'm being honest, I also quite like the fact that I can squat, DL, and bench with no collars and the discs don't move.

I try and avoid going heavy on bench press when I can't get a good spotter but I used to bench a lone all the time and I would leave the collars off so that I could empty the bar if I got stuck. This was very usefull since I used to train to failure all the time but not so much now since I never intentionally train till failure. Even on assistance exercises I only go to 'technical failure'.

Well, apart from the pull ups for the pull up challenge, but that was more denial, or 'ego' that caused that.

KPj

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:40 am
by daniel4738
Matt Z wrote:In my experience, the equipment makes a huge difference. Some barbells have smoth ends and some plates fit more loosely than others. Also, barbells DO flex under heavy loads. Consequently, plates can slip, even if you hold the bar completely level. Finally, collars eliminate, or at least reduce, the side-to-side rattle of plates. I always use collars when I lift.
I have noticed this with clean and jerking heavy weights.

Once you hit about 80kg, and I get the bar up onto the top of my chest, the bar bounces.

I personally always use collars, but thats just because I like to feel safe. I have only dropped a bar once on the Bench and I quickly asked for help which came.

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:53 am
by Ryan A
Well I can attest to the plates sliding on a "perfectly" straight bar.

This was at a new gym that just got new bars and I almost lost 135 for warmup, and no, I was not unbalanced.

If the bar is really slick (so the decrepit ones at this gym could get the plates on probably) then just the bar flexing under the weight is enough to create a millimeter of incline. With no friction it doesn't matter how small the degree, the stuff slides off.

For the most part I agree that you do not need collars but when I lift with heavier weights, the plates do move a bit and it sucks to reset them every time, so I like putting a collar on to get the plates nice and tight.