Training for a 5K

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KPj
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Training for a 5K

Post by KPj » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:30 am

I'm not training for a 5K, don't be silly.

But my sister is. So is all the women in my work. All, including my sister, are completely out of shape, untrained etc. I'm only training my sis but I want her to do well (she's not expected to). I also want her to loose fat and get stronger. So, I thought I would bring this up encase it starts an interesting discussion. Now, i'm out my comfort zone when it comes to training someone for a run, but i've been keen to do it for a while, because I think I have good ideas (that I stole off of reputable coaches).

For one, I think runners do far too much running. They're also more scared of resistance training than pink DB clutching women (no offence to any women).

So, here's my goals for my sis, if anyone has anything to add, feel free, if you think anything is just plain stupid, feel free to say. Again, i'm out of my comfort zone here, i'm not pretending to be a pro. I also won't lie and say that I have a slight chip on my shoulder about how runners typically train.

GOALS (we have 3 months from this week):

Get better movement
Get stronger
Get more powerfull
Lose some fat
Oh, and I guess "Endurance" is worth a mention, too. :lol:

We had our first session last night. At a running track. I assessed her movement whilst putting her through a dynamic warm up. Shes quite clumsy and un co-ordinated. She has a very weak posterior chain and abs. "glute amnesia" when it comes to even body weight squats. She could also do with losing 30lbs or so in fat.

Them we done some movement drills - side steps, back pedalling, running but kicks, high knee jogs, lateral bounds (soft landings).

Then I had her do a circuit of body weight lunges, then a plank, then a standing row pulling a band that I held supersetted with 'band pull aparts'. We went round this 'circuit' about 6 times, with minimum rest. Then I finished her off with some 'bird dogs'. All of these movements although seemingly easy to a lot of us, are difficult for her. She was spent after this.

So, then we done some 50 yard 'build up' sprints, with a slow jog back (Intervals, really). I had her run at 80-90% 'effort' so she could concentrate on form - chest up, big strides, light on feet, pump the arms. We done this for about 10 minutes. I done everything alongside her. I've not told her this, but this is pretty much a 'GPP day" for me, which I do between lifting days.

This session was to gauge her weaknesses and limitations, and fitness levels. I got her to run one mile last week, and she done it in 11 minutes. So from here, i'm going to put a program together.

The principles of todays sessions - resitance training, movements training, some sprints, I feel should make up 2 days out of 4 per week. The other 2 days, maybe even 1 (not decided yet), i'm going to break up the 5K (3ish miles) into one mile segments. I'm going to hve her run one mile, time it, then have her rest for half that time, then run another mile, same rest, then the last mile. Over the first 4 weeks I'll cut her rest 30 seconds so she'll be doing it with 2 minutes less rest 4 weeks later. Basically, i'm teaching her to run faster ( I got this from Cosgrove, btw).

KPj


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Post by Proper Knob » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:17 am

Top tip from me would be to make it fun, and don't get too carried away with the 'i'm a coach with lots of ideas to try' aspect of it.

I'm assuming she's overweight, and not done any physical exercise for a while. If you make it fun and partly enjoyable the chances are that when the run is over and done with she might wish to continue exercising. If it's a brutal 3 months of her life and she hates it, she's more than likely to pack it in there and then.

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Post by KPj » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:38 am

Thanks for the tips.

Yeh, I basically have a plan. It's not on paper yet as I had to see her and guage her levels of fitness/conditioning first.

In a nutshell, she'll be improving her movements, getting stronger, getting faster, improving endurance. Movement will be worked on every session. I'm going to keep strength and endurance seperate, although, technically, the 'strength work' WILL improve her endurance, because it's not like she'll be doing 1RM tests or anything. She'll get strong via an endurance rep range because she's so new to it all. She WANTS to train 4x/week, so I was going to split it up to 2 days mostly resistance training, and 2 days mostly running (the whole mile thing I mentioned in first post).

However, I think 4 x week is too much for a newbie to stick to straight away. Now i'm thinking we'll only actually run one day per week, with the other 2 days being mostly resitance training and sprint stuff.

The functional geek that i'm becoming means that I cringe at the thought of her running any distances just now (good buy knee health).

I don't think there's any reason why she can't be 8-16 lbs of fat down, atleast, by the time the race comes. Especially because she's a complete newbie. She just needs to turn up and let me kick her a$$. I know what you mean by not killing her, but I do believe intensity is key, especially if she wants to be running the race carrying less weight. I will of course, work up to a high intensity, I won't throw her into things. As i said, yesterday was actually very similar to my GPP days, but it was intense for her.

If she runs that race in a good time carrying less weight and feeling strong and fast I think she'll learn to love the intensity.

I also plan on keeping the sessions under 45 minutes so it's 'over in a flash'...

KPj

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Post by stuward » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:09 am

I think under your guidamnce she'll do fine. 5K is a distance any fit person should be able to manage so it's a good goal. I wouldn't worry about endurance training right now. You have time for that. I see the main goal as injury prevention, so what you're doing is fine. I would use your running day for short intervals, say repeated quarter miles at a moderate pace, mainly to practice form. I wouldn't bother with longer distances until you're confident in her form.

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Post by TimD » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:11 am

Your plan sounds pretty good. Might want to google "fartlek training". It's pretty much similar to what you're doing, and was used back in the day by a ot of American T and F coaches for short to medium distance races. Basically, it's undefined intervals, in order for the trainee to keep interest, and mixes up the longer slower endurance stuff u with faster more intense efforts.
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Post by pdellorto » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:23 am

I'm no expert on coaching family, running 5Ks, or anything of that sort.

My only advice would be - make sure she's really resting on her 3 off days. If she's really enthusiastic about training for this she make try to do "extra" stuff on the grounds that more is better. She'll just burn herself out, since you'll be working her on the assumption she rested on the other days.

Sounds like you have a plan, though. I hope it works out for her. Get yourself certified to train people, because if she blows their doors off you can get some walk-in clients for your "5K Boot Camp."

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Post by KPj » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:48 am

TimD wrote:Your plan sounds pretty good. Might want to google "fartlek training". It's pretty much similar to what you're doing, and was used back in the day by a ot of American T and F coaches for short to medium distance races. Basically, it's undefined intervals, in order for the trainee to keep interest, and mixes up the longer slower endurance stuff u with faster more intense efforts.
Tim
Thanks Tim. Done a quick search and it looks interesting, some nice food for thought. On the interval 'stuff' I don't have much of an imagination so this will give me plenty to work with.

KPj

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Post by KPj » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:00 am

pdellorto wrote: My only advice would be - make sure she's really resting on her 3 off days. If she's really enthusiastic about training for this she make try to do "extra" stuff on the grounds that more is better. She'll just burn herself out, since you'll be working her on the assumption she rested on the other days.
This is a good point. I already need to annoy her about eating MORE. One of her co-workers who has running experience recommended she went on a SOUP DIET that she's using. OMG! I worked out that said soup diet would be 1200 calories per day, and that's me overestimating. I told her straight (and her co-worker) "if you train with me on that amount of calories, you probably will die, I actually woudn't wish it on anyone!"

After last night, she 'gets it'.

I got her on the 'meat and veg' band wagon a while ago, when she moved into her own flat. It wasn't a DIET, as such, it was just her saying, "ok, i'm going to be looking after myself, um... how do i do it" so i taught her how to buy loads of meat veg etc and whip up some meals. In terms of changing her body, though, she still has her weaknesses and completely blows it at the weekends - party girl mentality. But so far she sounds syked up to tone down the partying until the race (atleast).
pdellorto wrote: Sounds like you have a plan, though. I hope it works out for her. Get yourself certified to train people, because if she blows their doors off you can get some walk-in clients for your "5K Boot Camp."
lol, I actually got her to measure her waste, thighs, upper arms, and weigh herself, as well as taking 'posture pics' - front back, and sides. I told her she doesn't need to show anyone, including me. I'm hoping i'll have a well documented testimonial after this.

It's hard to say, I've tried and failed to get her to train before. I'm taking a different approach this time - I'll 'ease her in' to a degree, but the sessions are going to be short and brutal. I figured, i've tried the whole 'easing in' thing before, so this time i'll just try and get her RESULTS as quick as possible, 'cause that'll get anyone hooked.

Thanks

KPj

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Post by KPj » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:12 am

stuward wrote:I think under your guidamnce she'll do fine. 5K is a distance any fit person should be able to manage so it's a good goal. I wouldn't worry about endurance training right now. You have time for that. I see the main goal as injury prevention, so what you're doing is fine. I would use your running day for short intervals, say repeated quarter miles at a moderate pace, mainly to practice form. I wouldn't bother with longer distances until you're confident in her form.
That's exactly my thoughts, atleast for the first 4-ish weeks - Injury prevention. I kind of look at injury prevention as 'strengthening your weaknesses' anyway. She's more at risk than the typical runner because - she's female, and also because, she naturally has very wide hips, so the whole reason running is harder on females is actually accentuated with her build.

Her co-workers asked what she done last night, after explaining, they scoffed "did you actually do ANY running" lol. That's the kind of response I like. Her co-workers actually asked me if I wanted to train them, I said I would love to, but warned them that i would be 'unconventional' and wouldn't just stand and watch them run round a circle, so they didn't bother.

Hopefully my sister will prove me right.

KPj

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Post by pdellorto » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:26 pm

KPj wrote:I already need to annoy her about eating MORE. One of her co-workers who has running experience recommended she went on a SOUP DIET that she's using. OMG! I worked out that said soup diet would be 1200 calories per day, and that's me overestimating. I told her straight (and her co-worker) "if you train with me on that amount of calories, you probably will die, I actually woudn't wish it on anyone!"

After last night, she 'gets it'.
Yeah. It's a common mistake. "If working out hard 4 days a week and eating 2000 calories a day is working, then working out hard 7 days a week and eating 1200 calories should be fantastic!"

Just say the next logical step is to work out 24 hours a day and never eat. It's the end of that logical train.

I have a cousin who is trying to lose some post-deployment weight gain. I think the most important advice I gave him was "when in doubt, eat more, not less." He's training hard (running, bodyweight circuits, and now he's started MMA) so I want him to understand eating less calories isn't the answer, eating more of the right ones is. So far it's working...

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Post by Rucifer » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:57 pm

Back to the initial post...what's wrong with a 5k? Its not running a marathon. I think its a good judge of physical fitness cause a good 5ker can still use speed and endurance...

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Post by pdellorto » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:10 pm

Rucifer wrote:Back to the initial post...what's wrong with a 5k?
Because even assuming a 1-meter stride for KPj, it's about 4,995 reps past his usual maximum rep range. :wink:

Getting him to do 10+ pullups for a max-reps pullup test was like pulling teeth. We'll never see the like again! :lol:

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Post by KPj » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:36 am

pdellorto wrote:
Rucifer wrote:Back to the initial post...what's wrong with a 5k?
Because even assuming a 1-meter stride for KPj, it's about 4,995 reps past his usual maximum rep range. :wink:

Getting him to do 10+ pullups for a max-reps pullup test was like pulling teeth. We'll never see the like again! :lol:
haha. You know, I was reading some 'running stuff' last night. Did you pull 4995 out of the air? I ask because if so, it was a pretty close guestimate! Supposedly, there's approx 1500 steps per mile, and a 5K is just over 3 miles.

Anyway, to the original question - That's part of the reason - Preference. I just 'enjoy' low reps'. Mostly, I love 'resistance training' be it with weights, bodyweight, bands, "tins of beans" (but only if they're heavy enough!) etc. I believe that for losing fat, gaining muscle, even training 'endurance' that methods that primarily use resistance training are superior.

Most people run to get fit or lose weight or stay in shape or all of these reasons. Rarely do people run to become good runners, and there's a big difference. I'm on the band wagon that people should 'get fit to run'. I don't think running is the best, or safest choice of exercise for most people. Infact, the more I read about it, the more i'm baffled that weight lifting has an injury stigma. I read last night on StrengthCoach that runners have a 60% chance of injury, women are at a greater risk, and women with naturally wider hips are at an even greater risk (the reason, in short, is an increase in Q angle). Hence why world class female marathon runners have such a narrow frame, small hips etc (they're built to run).

In a safety sense, when running on concretem you're pounding approx 2-5 times bodyweight into the ground on every step. I certainly can't squat 5 times my bodyweight, I can squat over twice b/w, but not for 1500 reps! Per Mile! The "2-5" b/w number will depend largely on running and movement efficency too, and, since untrained people are in such bad shape now, you can only assume that the majority are in the 4-5 x b/w range.

Also, 'jogging' just enforces typical imbalances that most untrained people have - quad dominance, weak posterior chain, overactive hip flexors, etc

So, that's the reasons why I don't like running. However...

I have A LOT of respect for people who "want to be good runners". And there's risks with all kinds of exercise, not just running.

Also, I love powerlifting. It's inevitable that i'll compete some time in the 'mid term'. There's a saying "a PL gym is a great place to get strong, but not a great place to get healthy". Having trained in my local PL club, and being the functional freak that I am, let's just say I can testify to that! There aren't many 'competitions' (regardless of sport) that don't come with risks.

In terms of a 5K specifically, well, it's still running. However, i'm much happier at the thought of family members doing a 5K than half or full marathons. Plus, in terms of my sister, i'm going to get her 'fit to run' so SOME of the reasons I mentioned won't count for her.

You could say it depends entirely on the reason. Why are you running? To lose fat? Well, I don't like it for that reason. To be a good runner, at whatever distance? Then I respect that. Probably more of an answer than you wanted but i drink far too much coffee and it shows in posts.

KPj

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Post by manofsteel1385 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:24 pm

KPj wrote:
pdellorto wrote:
Rucifer wrote:Back to the initial post...what's wrong with a 5k?
Because even assuming a 1-meter stride for KPj, it's about 4,995 reps past his usual maximum rep range. :wink:

Getting him to do 10+ pullups for a max-reps pullup test was like pulling teeth. We'll never see the like again! :lol:
haha. You know, I was reading some 'running stuff' last night. Did you pull 4995 out of the air? I ask because if so, it was a pretty close guestimate! Supposedly, there's approx 1500 steps per mile, and a 5K is just over 3 miles.

Anyway, to the original question - That's part of the reason - Preference. I just 'enjoy' low reps'. Mostly, I love 'resistance training' be it with weights, bodyweight, bands, "tins of beans" (but only if they're heavy enough!) etc. I believe that for losing fat, gaining muscle, even training 'endurance' that methods that primarily use resistance training are superior.

Most people run to get fit or lose weight or stay in shape or all of these reasons. Rarely do people run to become good runners, and there's a big difference. I'm on the band wagon that people should 'get fit to run'. I don't think running is the best, or safest choice of exercise for most people. Infact, the more I read about it, the more i'm baffled that weight lifting has an injury stigma. I read last night on StrengthCoach that runners have a 60% chance of injury, women are at a greater risk, and women with naturally wider hips are at an even greater risk (the reason, in short, is an increase in Q angle). Hence why world class female marathon runners have such a narrow frame, small hips etc (they're built to run).

In a safety sense, when running on concretem you're pounding approx 2-5 times bodyweight into the ground on every step. I certainly can't squat 5 times my bodyweight, I can squat over twice b/w, but not for 1500 reps! Per Mile! The "2-5" b/w number will depend largely on running and movement efficency too, and, since untrained people are in such bad shape now, you can only assume that the majority are in the 4-5 x b/w range.

Also, 'jogging' just enforces typical imbalances that most untrained people have - quad dominance, weak posterior chain, overactive hip flexors, etc

So, that's the reasons why I don't like running. However...

I have A LOT of respect for people who "want to be good runners". And there's risks with all kinds of exercise, not just running.

Also, I love powerlifting. It's inevitable that i'll compete some time in the 'mid term'. There's a saying "a PL gym is a great place to get strong, but not a great place to get healthy". Having trained in my local PL club, and being the functional freak that I am, let's just say I can testify to that! There aren't many 'competitions' (regardless of sport) that don't come with risks.

In terms of a 5K specifically, well, it's still running. However, i'm much happier at the thought of family members doing a 5K than half or full marathons. Plus, in terms of my sister, i'm going to get her 'fit to run' so SOME of the reasons I mentioned won't count for her.

You could say it depends entirely on the reason. Why are you running? To lose fat? Well, I don't like it for that reason. To be a good runner, at whatever distance? Then I respect that. Probably more of an answer than you wanted but i drink far too much coffee and it shows in posts.

KPj
Lmao kpj about the coffee i applaud your trial here. I haven't trained anyone to run but i think you're on the right track...no pun intended! Just keep her goal oriented and focused if I were you I would have her talk about her goals to friends just to keep her motivated on a daily basis whether it's diet consistency or just wanting to keep working.

Have you recommended lifting to her? Some people like that more then running, ok most people. I hate running but do it to get in shape!! and I know you hate that haha anyways good job man looking forward to see how she places.

John

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Post by Rucifer » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:22 pm

I agree that running is probably regarded too highly by most people in terms of fitness, but I think around 2-3 miles (or the 5k) is generally a good measurement to run to involve both some speed and endurance, if your not looking to specialize in either. Which I don't think most people are. But to specialize in 5k's and anywhere from 500m to 5k's is pretty tough. Because it takes massive amounts of speed and endurance, unlike a sprinter or weightlifter or of course, a marathoner. So it takes real dedication because you won't see awesome results like you would in weightlifting, and its not as easy as long distance running. So that's why I like to run it I guess. And do it with dedication. Simply because its more challenging the other two options I said before. But then again I still lift weights too :grin:


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