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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:15 pm
by Porovoz
KPj wrote: Why don't you tell us what your doing, training and diet wise already, and i'm sure you'll get some great advice. Other guys here are better versed than me to give you advice on bullking up but i'm sure all the answers will be quite similar anyway - eat big and lift big :)
I've already posted the routine my trainer has me doing; it didn't impress people too much.
I've changed it up a little since, it's currently along the lines of this:

Day 1
1. Shoulder Press (dumbbell)
2. Seated Rear Lateral Raise (lever)
3. Incline Lateral Raise (dumbbell)
4. Front Raise (dumbbell)
5. One Arm Rear Delt Row (cable)
6. Lateral Raise [standing] (lever)
7. Skull Crusher (barbell)
8. Close Grip Bench Press (barbell)
9. Pushdown [one arm] (cable)
*. Three different exercises for abs.

Day 2
1. Iso-Lateral Low Row (lever)
2. Front Pulldown (cable)
3. Straight Back Seated Row (cable)
4. Straight Arm Pulldown (cable)
5. Deadlift (barbell)
6. Shrug (barbell)
7. Wrist Curl (barbell)
8. Reverse Wrist Curl (barbell)
9. Hammer Curl (dumbbell)
*. Three different exercises for abs.

Day 3
1. Bench Press (dumbbell)
2. Incline Bench Press (dumbbell)
3. Decline Bench Press (barbell)
4. Pullover (dumbbell)
5. Standing Fly/Crossover (cable)
6. Low Fly (cable)
7. Curl (barbell)
8. Curl [one arm] (cable)
9. Concentration Curl (dumbbell)
*. Three different exercises for abs.

Day 4
1. Squat (barbell)
2. 45° Leg Press (sled)
3. Lying Leg Curl (lever)
4. Iso-Lateral Leg Extension (lever)
5. Hip Abduction (cable)
6. Hip Adduction (cable)
7. Horizontal Calf Extension (lever)
8. Seated Calf Raise (lever)
9. Tibia Dorsi Flexion (lever)
*. Three different exercises for abs.

I try to train on a daily basis, but time constraints usually limit me to 4-5 times a week, in addition to 1-3 days of cardio. Mostly 3 sets of 10 reps for everything, but I will on occasion throw in a fourth set of something that I feel needs extra work. The exception is that I've been doing 30 reps per set for calf extension, and 15 for both calf raises and tibia dorsi flexion. Although I don't entirely know, is higher volume for calves a good idea?

I'm also in the process of cutting down my routine to only 8 exercises per day. As I go to the gym fairly late, I do not always manage to finish before closing time. This means combining the leftovers with the next day's workout, or accumulating them for several days, and then dedicating a separate "catch-up" day. The first thing to go would be the leg extension, one or two shoulder exercises (hence I ask if just the shoulder press is enough to hit both heads), and something from my chest day (hence the question about the decline/flat press). I would then move shrugs to my shoulder day, and potentially add incline shoulder raises for my serratus anterior if I end up getting rid of two exercises instead of one.

As for diet, I don't really keep track of the amounts - just eat frequently, eat lots, and eat healthy. My staple foods are meat (chicken, beef, ham, fish, pork, fish, turkey, etc), eggs, fat-free + low sugar yogurt, assorted vegetables, LOTS of fruit, and oatmeal. This is then supplemented by other foods eaten fairly often, but not a daily basis: milk, buckwheat, rice, whole wheat bread, etc. I eat constantly, usually anywhere from 5-10 times a day, with each meal being the equivalent of light(ish) meal eaten by someone eating 3 times a day. With the massive amount of meat I consume, I find it reasonable to forgo protein shakes, which I do not particularly like.

Stephen Johnson wrote: Bulking up while cutting fat is almost impossible to do without chemical assistance. You might consider bulking up to 190# @12-13% bodyfat and then paring down to your desired weight
I understand this, but it's hard for me to not be lean while eating healthy. I am prone to carrying a little extra fat, and can get up to 15% on completely sloth-like behaviour and a crappy diet. But my body is rather mesomorphic, so as long as I exercise, even if only very moderately, I find that I need a diet unlimited in pizza and ice cream to be around 12-13%. If being very strict about what I eat and training hard, 10-11% seems to be my upper limit, even with lots of carbs and force-feeding.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:07 pm
by Halfbreed
Ironman wrote:I don't understand how your muscle can NOT come in proportionate.


You are right that if you have a balanced routine you will be proportionate, but I know guys that only ever do their chest, or do lots of quad-heavy workouts and end up pulling a hamstring or having shoulder injuries. You are right, it should not take much isolation, but generally the push-pull concept should make everything pretty balanced.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:40 pm
by Gantz
to me it seems like you're thinking too much. if you want to gain mass, the best way is to focus on the compound lifts and keep things simple.
chest separation? delt proportion? i doubt that really matters UNLESS your muscles already stand out and cause your figure to be blatantly disproportionate; then you can focus on isolation and the such. for now keep things simple and just focus on your main goals.

but looking at your routine really reminds me of the days when i had a routine that was almost identical to yours.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:41 pm
by Stephen Johnson
Porovoz wrote:I understand this, but it's hard for me to not be lean while eating healthy. I am prone to carrying a little extra fat, and can get up to 15% on completely sloth-like behaviour and a crappy diet. But my body is rather mesomorphic, so as long as I exercise, even if only very moderately, I find that I need a diet unlimited in pizza and ice cream to be around 12-13%. If being very strict about what I eat and training hard, 10-11% seems to be my upper limit, even with lots of carbs and force-feeding.
Untrained:
Weight: 165-170lb
Bodyfat: ~15%

Currently:
Weight: 155-160lb
Bodyfat: ~9%
According to your figures, you dropped about 10# of fat (25# of [email protected]# to 15#@160#) and gained almost no muscle. You have to be less strict if you want to bulk up.

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:41 am
by Ironman
That is a terrible routine. Tell the trainer to stop reading Flex or Musclemag, or whatever it is he is reading. They are just trying to sell supplements. They ALWAYS post a pro's pre-contest routine because it is very complicated and impressive. It's also total crap for bulking up.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:03 pm
by Porovoz
Jungledoc wrote:I'm confused by the division of the chest into "upper", "middle", and "lower". By "chest" most people mean pecs, and they have 2 divisions, not 3.
A few quotes, all from different authors:
For my chest, I divide it into three parts - lower, middle, and upper chest.
http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/brent11.htm

In order to have a well balanced chest, you must train it all, all different angles, from incline-flat-decline
http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/quade4.htm

The lower chest I believe is the most neglected portion of the chest. If someone neglects the lower portion of their chest you will notice fullness in the upper half but below mid-chest they will be flat and without the roundness at the bottom portion. Doing decline presses as well as dips can develop the lower chest.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/weik59.htm


...and so forth.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:50 pm
by Jungledoc
I'm not overwhelmed with quotations from bodybuilding.com. I don't know the teenbodybuilding.com, but it doesn't sound all that authoritative to me. I'll stand by what I said. It makes no sense. I can't figure a logical way to divide the chest into three anything. Believe what you will. How are you defining the "upper", "middle" and "lower" anatomically?

The best quote you list says that you should work the chest from multiple angles. That's pretty much what Hoosgow was saying about "change it up". But you can't do every possible exercise or even every worthwhile exercise all the time. There wouldn't be time in the day to take a pee. Flat bench works both heads of the pecs. Incline puts a relatively greater load on the clavicular head, but doesn't completely isolate it. Decline puts relatively more load on the sternal head, but doesn't isolate it either. It makes the most sense to do flat bench most of the time, and then change to decline or incline for a few weeks at a time. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be spending time doing both flat and either of the others when there is so much more of the body left. I don't want to spend 25% of my workout on 5% of my body.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:53 pm
by Jungledoc
Oh, and one other thing--that last quote, the one about the "lower chest" being the most neglected part of the chest? Well, that may be, but the chest is the most over-emphasized part of the body, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:31 am
by Porovoz
So I think this is the cut down routine that I will pitch to my trainer is as follows. I think this addresses some of the "horribleness" of what I've been doing:

Day 1
1. Shoulder Press (dumbbell)
2. One Arm Rear Delt Row (cable)
3. Lateral Raise (dumbbell)
4. Front Raise (dumbbell)
5. Rear Lateral Raise (cable)
6. Skull Crusher (barbell)
7. Close Grip Bench Press (barbell)
8. Pushdown [one arm] (cable)
*. Three different exercises for abs.

Day 2
1. Iso-Lateral {Low} Row (lever)
2. Front Pulldown (cable)
3. Straight Back Seated Row (cable)
4. Straight Arm Pulldown (cable)
5. Deadlift (barbell)
6. Shrug (barbell)
7. Wrist Curl (barbell)
8. Reverse Wrist Curl (barbell)
*. Three different exercises for abs.

Day 3
1. {Decline} Bench Press (dumbbell)
2. Incline Bench Press (dumbbell)
3. Pullover (dumbbell)
4. Standing Fly/Crossover (cable)
5. Low Fly (cable)
6. Curl [one arm] (cable/barbell)
7. Hammer Curl (dumbbell)
8. Concentration Curl (dumbbell)
*. Three different exercises for abs.

Day 4
1. Squat (barbell)
2. 45° Leg Press (sled)
3. Lying Leg Curl (lever)
4. Hip Abduction (cable)
5. Hip Adduction (cable)
6. Horizontal Calf Extension (lever)
7. Seated Calf Raise (lever)
8. Tibia Dorsi Flexion (lever)
*. Three different exercises for abs.


Jungledoc wrote:I can't figure a logical way to divide the chest into three anything. Believe what you will. How are you defining the "upper", "middle" and "lower" anatomically?
I'm not really arguing otherwise, just pointing out that there is ample contradictory information on the matter. In any case, thanks for clearing that up, as you can see, I am now going to alternate between the two instead of doing both. :smile:

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:56 am
by Jungledoc
Wow. Just wow.

You have gone from 12 exercises per workout to 11 exercises per workout. A very, very small step in the right direction. Of these, only one per day is a compound movement (unless you count the 2 variants of BP).

I'd urge you to choose one of the programs written by someone who really knows what they are doing (not your present trainer) and work it as designed. It probably will include 3 compound movements per day, and maybe 1 or 2 isolation exercises. The program will include all 6 of the primary movements (squat, deadlift, vertical push, vertical pull, horizontal push, horizontal pull). You will be able to complete each workout before your body is completely depleted, and still have enough growth hormone and testosterone left to build some muscle.

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:30 am
by Porovoz
Hold on, my program has all the basic compound lifts! Let see: squat = check, deadlift = check, bench press = check, and military/shoulder press = check. Sure, at the moment I cheat a little bit on the row by using a machine, but I'm currently practising my free weight row, and compensating with the cable. I prefer the pulldown (also compound) for lats, but even then, I do pull ups after running on most of my cardio days. What's left, the dip? I don't see how that is different in mechanics from the decline bench press, which I will be alternative in and out of my routine. Am I missing something? Looks to me like I'm all set on the basic compound lifts...

Otherwise, if I can finish my workout within an hour, what's wrong with keeping up the development of lesser muscles with isolation exercises? My upper traps aren't going to magically grow on their own if I don't shrug, are they? From what I read and see around the gym, squatting won't give me great calves either, and so forth.

Isn't the point of working out to fatigue your muscles? What's the good in me bothering to make the trip to the gym in the first place, and then walking out after doing four exercises, if I could just as well still do the equivalent of what I just did? I'm actually very sad at removing the leg extension; it gave me an awesome burn in my quads after already working them from squatting a leg pressing to the point where I had trouble walking afterwards for a few minutes. It was one of the best exercises in terms of making me feel as though it was taking a toll on my muscles and that I was accomplishing something. In most other instances I fail on the exercises, but meh, I can do it all over again with a minute or two of rest.

And to be fair, I'll only be doing eight exercises per workout. The abs I finish at home, after eating and resting.

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:57 am
by Porovoz
On second thought, this would be a better chest/bicep day:

Day 3
1. {Decline} Bench Press (dumbbell)
2. Incline Bench Press (dumbbell)
3. Dip (bodyweight)
4. Pullover (dumbbell)
5. Low Fly (cable)
6. Curl [one arm] (cable/barbell)
7. Hammer Curl (dumbbell)
8. Concentration Curl (dumbbell)
*. Three different exercises for abs.


This gives me the following compound exercise count:
Day 1: three
Day 2: four
Day 3: three (if counting bench press variants)
Day 4: two

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:44 am
by Stephen Johnson
@Porovoz:

You're free to do your own thing, but why are you trying to refine an intermediate bodybuilder split routine when your goal is to bulk up? You would be better off doing a full body routine 2-3x a week (heavy/light or heavy/light/medium) based on a few heavy compound exercises. Doing legs, back and chest once a week is not going to get you bigger quickly.

I agree with Jungledoc - you should go with an established routine rather than haggle with your trainer. TimD put together a list of routines here

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:40 am
by Porovoz
@ Stephen Johnson

The main problem with a full body routine is that I'm quite hopelessly addicted to exercise in general. I need to do *something* on a daily basis, and feel like its a minor tragedy if I don't. Basically, I need to be in the gym almost every day of the week, especially with the having more time for it in the summer. If I am limited to 2-3x per week, I'll be killing myself with cardio every single day that I am not weight training. As far as I understand, that would constitute not suboptimal conditions for bulking, but impossible ones.

And perhaps this should be disregarded as my ego talking, but unlike weight training, I like to think that I am not an utter novice to muscle mass. I mean, as useless of a measurement as the BMI is, at 9% bodyfat I am pushing being considered "overweight" on it. The basic muscle definition such as visible separation of the delts into separate heads is already there. And looking at the more bodybuilding oriented routines listed, I can't shake the feeling that they are overly simplistic and designed for someone entirely out of shape. I desperately want to work on say separating my soleus and gastrocnemius, not ignore it for a year while I squat, which I do anyways.

I hope that makes sense and isn't too silly.

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:01 am
by Stephen Johnson
Porovoz wrote:The main problem with a full body routine is that I'm quite hopelessly addicted to exercise in general. I need to do *something* on a daily basis, and feel like its a minor tragedy if I don't. Basically, I need to be in the gym almost every day of the week, especially with the having more time for it in the summer..
Then you should go forward in your training with the understanding that your training methods aren't going to get you to your stated goal. In other words, you're wasting your time in the gym from a results standpoint. Exercising every day will either (a) cause you to overtrain or (b) force you to reduce your exercise intensity, resulting in mediocre results.

Why not go to the beach or take a walk in the park on your days off? Or play a game of pickup basketball, softball or tennis? Staying in the gym 24/7 isn't healthy.