Random Questions About Presses

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Porovoz
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Post by Porovoz » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:20 pm

Is this approaching acceptability, or is there more that must be shed?
I would probably be done each of these days, save for legs, in 45 minutes and would train 5-6 times a week.

Day 1
1. Shoulder Press (dumbbell)
2. One Arm Rear Delt Row (cable)
3. Lateral Raise (dumbbell)
4. Front Raise (dumbbell)
5. Shrug (barbell)
6. Skull Crusher + Close Grip Bench Press (barbell)
7. Pushdown [one arm] (cable)
*. Three different exercises for abs later in the day.

Day 2
1. Iso-Lateral {Low} Row (lever)
2. Front Pulldown (cable)
3. Straight Back Seated Row (cable)
4. Deadlift (barbell)
5. Horizontal Calf Extension (lever)
6. Seated Calf Raise (lever)
7. Tibia Dorsi Flexion (lever)
*. Three different exercises for abs later in the day.

Day 3
1. {Decline} Bench Press (dumbbell)
2. Incline Bench Press (dumbbell)
3. Pullover (dumbbell)
4. Low Fly (cable)
5. Curl [one arm] (cable/barbell)
6. Hammer Curl (dumbbell)
7. Concentration Curl (dumbbell)
*. Three different exercises for abs later in the day.

Day 4
1. Squat (barbell)
2. 45° Leg Press (sled)
3. Lying Leg Curl (lever)
4. Hip Abduction (cable)
5. Hip Adduction (cable)
6. Wrist Curl (barbell)
7. Reverse Wrist Curl (barbell)
*. Three different exercises for abs later in the day.


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Stephen Johnson
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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:52 pm

@Porovoz:

I'm still not sold on using what amounts to a bodybuilding precontest-type routine for bulking, but your experience with your routine in the coming weeks could prove me wrong. Start following it ASAP, and give it at least 6-8 weeks. At the end of that time, you'll either be happy with your results, or you won't.

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Post by Ironman » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:15 pm

Not even close.

Let me tell you a story. A guy I know at work would ask me about this sort of thing, then not take the advice because it didn't sound right, or like anything he ever heard. A couple months later he would do the same thing. This went on for about 18 months or so.

Finally he got tired of never making any progress and was willing to follow the advice. In a short period of time he has shed a few points of bodyfat, looks leaner, has gained a few pounds, plus a couple inches on his chest and 3/4 of an inch on his arms. When I last asked how he was doing, he said this about his gains "beyond my wildest dreams".

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Post by Gantz » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:29 pm

you've posted up your routine three times, and all three times they were deemed to be trash. each new routine changed a little for the better, so i'm guessing after you post up another 12-14 routines you should have something that we can all agree on.

but seriously, working out 5-6 times a week isn't good for your muscles. they need time to rest. can't you train 4 times a week and do hardcore cardio or intense sports for the other three days?

i doubt anyone here is going to change their original opinion about your routine. maybe it works for you and only you. but i think you should still try out some of the already established routines in the sticky, for, say 3 weeks or so and then see the results. if you're unhappy with it, go back to your old routine. if it works, good for you.

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Post by hari » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:46 am

Simple is the best! in japanese シンプルは、ベスト!

May be psychologically,you feel satisfied doing a alot of exersices than few ones,in my opnion.But believe us, doing simple you can grow your muscle dramatically!!


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Post by pdellorto » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:22 am

hari wrote:Simple is the best! in japanese シンプルは、ベスト!
"shinpuru wa, besto!"

In the spirit of that, here is Dan John's one-lift-a-day workout:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ay_program

Try that for four weeks and I think it'll pretty much tell you that one exercise can be enough enough for a day's workout. If I'd seen that before I moved back to NJ and got a strength coach, I'd have done that one too...simple and hard.

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Post by Jungledoc » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:17 am

Still lots of redundancy and overlap. The "big six" get most of the muscle groups. We say it over and over here, "think movement, not muscles". This makes the process so much simpler. The big movements produce the anabolic endocrine influences that cause muscle growth, so all of your muscles benefit. Lateral raises don't. They may benefit your lats a bit, but to work every muscle in the body takes forever and would be less effective. You aren't even coming close to working all the muscles with your isolation approach, so why do you want to keep trying?

Besides, why are you so determined to reinvent the wheel? There are perfectly good wheels already available. Rippetoe and Starr and Dan John, and Joe DeFranco or Mike Robinson or Eric Cressy know so much more about this than you or I do. Why don't their routines have 10 or 12 exercises, and why don't they advocate lifting every day of the week? Their livings depend on producing results, real-life results. I'm always puzzled why beginners insist on designing their own routines, and then defend them to the death. If the same thing happened in architecture, houses would be falling down all around us, but we have building codes to protect us. There are no building codes for weight training. Pity.

Here are several alternatives:

Stop posting your routines and do whatever you want.
Say that you'll do SS or something, and then do whatever you want.
Tell us you really think we're all full of it, and then do whatever you want.
Start doing SS or Starr or StrongLifts or something faithfully and then tell us in 6 weeks what great progress you're making.

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Post by stuward » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:25 pm

This last post should be required reading.

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Post by hoosegow » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:53 pm

Doc, stop making so much sense. We've warned you about be practical and this thing you call logic.

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Stephen Johnson
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Post by Stephen Johnson » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:47 pm

@Porovoz:

I hope that you don't think that the people on this thread are trying to belittle you or that we don't have your best interests at heart. We want you to succeed in meeting your goals. But experience has taught us that you don't build quality muscle with isolation exercise filled bodybuilder type split routines. These types of routines are OK for refining muscle, but not for building it. The routines listed in the sticky are there because they work.

Perhaps you will come back later and tell us of your progress. Perhaps not. In either case, good luck, and happy training.

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Post by Porovoz » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:21 am

I have learned the errors of my ways, and am ready to start a wiser routine. I am thinking of a Push/Pull/Legs three day split with each muscle group being worked 2x a week. As generally prescribed, I am limiting my workouts to 36-50 reps per muscle group without exceeding a total of 15 sets (of the standard 10 rep variety). I'll be generous with rest for compound lifts (as much as I need), and limit it with any isolation work to a 60 second maxim, while trying to speed things up further via supersetting where possible. I haven't yet figured out what to do for abs, though. How does this look?


Day 1
1. Bench Press (dumbbell) 10x2
2. Incline Bench Press (dumbbell) 10x2
3. Pullover (dumbbell) 10x1
4. Shoulder Press (dumbbell) 10x2
5. Lateral Raise (dumbbell) 10x2
6. Skull Crusher (barbell) 10x2
7. Pushdown (cable) 10x2

Day 2
1. Straight Back Seated Row (cable) 10x3
2. Front Pulldown (cable) 10x2
3. Shrug (barbell) 10x4
4. Seated Rear Lateral Raise (lever) 10x3
5. Curl (barbell) 10x2
6. Hammer Curl (dumbbell) 10x2
7. Wrist Curl (barbell) 10x3

Day 3
1. Squat (barbell) 10x2
2. Deadlift (barbell) 10x3
3. 45° Leg Press (sled) 10x2
4. Lying Leg Curl (lever) 10x3
5. 45° Calf Press (sled) 10x3
6. Seated Calf Raise (lever) 10x2
7. Reverse Wrist Curl (barbell) 10x3

Day 4
1. Decline Bench Press (barbell) 10x2
2. Incline Bench Press (dumbbell) 10x2
3. Fly (dumbell) 10x1
4. Shoulder Press (dumbbell) 10x2
5. Lateral Raise (dumbbell) 10x2
6. Skull Crusher (barbell) 10x2
7. Pushdown (cable) 10x2

Day 5
1. Straight Back Seated Row (cable) 10x2
2. Front Pulldown (cable) 10x3
3. Shrug (barbell) 10x4
4. Seated Rear Lateral Raise (lever) 10x3
5. Curl (barbell) 10x2
6. Hammer Curl (dumbbell) 10x2
7. Wrist Curl (barbell) 10x3

Day 6
1. Squat (barbell) 10x2
2. Deadlift (barbell) 10x3
3. 45° Leg Press (sled) 10x2
4. Lying Leg Curl (lever) 10x3
5. 45° Calf Press (sled) 10x3
6. Seated Calf Raise (lever) 10x2
7. Reverse Wrist Curl (barbell) 10x3

Day 7
-rest-

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Stephen Johnson
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Post by Stephen Johnson » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:47 am

Porovoz wrote: How does this look?
Terrible - wprking out six days straight is a sure-fire way towards overtraining.

If you need to hit your bodyarts more than once a week, either do a full body routine 2-3 times a week or an upper/lower split 4 times a week.

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Post by stuward » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:53 am

You could go to a 4 day cycle, push/pull/legs/rest. There is nothing that says that your cycle has to be 7 days long. Once you get out of the week long cycle, all sorts of options pop up. Let your recovery needs drive your frequency.

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Post by frogbyte » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:02 am

Just looking at that huge list makes me want to try http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ay_program instead

Porovoz
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Post by Porovoz » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:26 pm

stuward wrote:You could go to a 4 day cycle, push/pull/legs/rest. There is nothing that says that your cycle has to be 7 days long. Once you get out of the week long cycle, all sorts of options pop up. Let your recovery needs drive your frequency.
That's not a bad idea at all! I simply scheduled one day a week of guaranteed rest since it just isn't possible for me train on Fridays on account of time constraints, but occassionally also miss a day here and there on account of being busy and/or too tired. Is taking random breaks like this a bad idea in that set rest days are preferable?

Stephen Johnson wrote: Terrible - wprking out six days straight is a sure-fire way towards overtraining.
My body seems to be able to handle it just fine. Not to mention that overtraining, on the whole, seems to be alot of croc:
Overtraining, or central nervous system fatigue, or whatever you want to call it, is certainly possible, but occurs less often than today's gym culture would have you believe. People tell me all the time that they want to go climbing, play basketball, or do something else outside the gym, but they "don't want to overdo it." The truth is that they're nowhere near that point.

Most recreational athletes and gym rats have no idea how much stress their bodies can tolerate. And they don't always appreciate how well their bodies can recover and how quickly they can adapt.
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_arti ... ters_vol_5


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