If I train my muscles slow, would they be slow, or is it BS

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Matt Z
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Post by Matt Z » Sat May 02, 2009 9:38 am

PS) Boxing trainers don't generally emphasize weight training. Some are just oldschool and still believe that lifting makes you slow and musclebound (which is a myth by the way). But the main reason is that weight training can bump you up to a heavier weight class, where you'll be fighting bigger, stronger, harder-hitting opponants. However, that's only really a concern for competative fighters.

Also, if you ever hear a fighter explain that he dropped down to a lighter weight class because he's better at X lbs, what he really means is usually that he's more competative at X lbs. Being more competative in a given weight class isn't neccessarily the same as being a better boxer.


hari
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Post by hari » Sun May 03, 2009 7:45 am

Idunno,If you dont want to stop your bodybuilding training routine then you can add Explosive Training for it.


Explosive Conditioning for Athletes and Bodybuilders

Exercise Sets Reps
1A) Dumbbell burpee snatch with push-up 4 10-12
1B) Cable or band alternating biceps curl 4 12-15*
2A) Total-body explosive push-up 4 10-12
2B) Full-range-of-motion jump squat 4 15
3A) Medicine-ball crossover push-up 4 10-12*
3B) Alternating full-range-of-motion split jump 4 8-12*
4A) Lat pulldown (any variation) 4 12-15

4B) Machine rear-delt fly 4 15-20
5A) Body-weight bench dip 4 15-20
5B) Sit-up (any variation) 4 15-20
6A) Dumbbell seated shoulder press 4 12-15
6B) Back extension 4 15-20


http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... dybuilders

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... dybuilders




Image

We've all done static lunges, and I'm sure almost everyone reading this has done the more difficult (and infinitely less popular) progression, Bulgarian split squats. The problem with that progression is that the BSS takes the glutes out of the exercise. It's almost all knee extension. I developed the wall split squat as a way to put the posterior chain back into the movement without losing the obvious benefit of quad development.

If you're involved in any kind of sport that requires an explosive forward motion — a wrestler shooting for a takedown, a sprinter coming off the blocks, a football lineman coming out of a three- or four-point stance — the wall split squat can help.


http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... _exercises

Kenny Croxdale
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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sun May 03, 2009 8:47 am

caangelxox wrote:there are two different type of muscle fibers. slow twitch and fast twitch. Training fast will work the fast twitch fibers. training slow will train the slow twitch fibers.

For an athlete, fast twitch fibers need to be trained.
canngelxox,

Yes, there are two basic type of muscle fiber: 1) Slow Twitch and 2) Fast Twitch. Fast Twitch further divide into Type IIA and IIB.

Type IIA and IIB are a bit different. Type IIA developed and utilzied more for limit strength movements (1RM/max strength): Heavy squats, bench pressing, deadlifts, etc tend to develop the Type IIB fiber.

Type IIB are developed and utilzied moreso for power and/or speed movements: Plyometrics, Olympic movements, jump squats, bench press throws, etc.

One of the unique characteristics of Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber is ability to convert from one type to another. Type IIA muscle fiber can be converted to IIB and Type IIB muscle fiber can be converted to IIA.

Conversion is determined by your training program. If you ONLY perform limit stregnth movements, Type IIB will be converted to IIA.

If you ONLY perform power/speed movements, Type IIA will be converted to IIB.

As I noted in an earlier post: "The foundation of power and/or speed is built on strength." Thus, a novice and an intermediate will increase their power and/or speed initially by increasing their limit strength.

However, at some point some power and/or speed exercises need to be performed.

"Muslce Fiber Types and Training" is a good aritle on this. http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/techni ... n_Karp.pdf

Kenny Croxdale

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sun May 03, 2009 9:19 am

Matt Z wrote:PS) Boxing trainers don't generally emphasize weight training. Some are just oldschool and still believe that lifting makes you slow and musclebound (which is a myth by the way).
Matt,

Actually, there is some truth to the old school addage that lifting heavy weight will make you slow.

As I noted in my post to canngelxox, yes there are basically two types of fast twich muscle fiber, IIA and IIB.

IIA Muscle Fiber is developed primirily with strength movements: Heavy squats, bench press, deadlift, etc. Type IIA is geared more for pushing heavy loads. Type IIAs are Clyesdale horses.

Type IIB fiber is utilzied moreso for power and/or speed movements: Plyometric, Olympic movements, jump squats, bench press throw, etc.
Type IIB is geared for power and/or speed. DType IIB are the SUPER Fast Muscle Twitch Muscle Fiber. Type IIBs are Rockets.

What unique about Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber is it abilty to convert. Type IIA can be converted to IIB and Type IIB can be converted to IIA.

Initially, a novice or an intermediate will increase power and/or speed with limit strength exercises. However, at some point things change.

The more limit strength training you do, the more of the Type IIB Super Fast Muscle Fiber are converted to IIA Muscle Fiber

Think of a see saw on a playground. When one kid goes up, the other goes down. That is exactly what happens (at some point) with Type IIA and Type IIB Muscle Fiber.

Training ONLY limit strength movements will make you stronger. That inpart because more Type IIB are being converted to Type IIA.

What you end up doing is trading power and/or speed for strength.

Thus, you strength goes up while you power and/or speed goes down.

So, the old school believe that lifting weight make you slow, is to some extent true.

A great research article that examines this is: "A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters." McBride.

Kenny Croxdale

Matt Z
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Post by Matt Z » Sun May 03, 2009 5:48 pm

"Initially, a novice or an intermediate will increase power and/or speed with limit strength exercises." - Kenny Croxdale

Wouldn't a boxer who's never weight trained fall into this category?

"Training ONLY limit strength movements will make you stronger. That inpart because more Type IIB are being converted to Type IIA.

What you end up doing is trading power and/or speed for strength." - Kenny Croxdale

Maybe so, but boxers are constantly performing explosive movements every time they hit a heavybag, spar, work on focus mits, etc. The only way a boxer could train only limit strength movements would be to stop boxing.


Matt Z
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Post by Matt Z » Sun May 03, 2009 5:59 pm

PS) The old myth that heavy lifting makes you musclebound and slow extends to ALL weight training ... not just bodybuilding and powerlifting. Even today, it's often used to justify bodyweight-only programs that rely on high-rep push-ups, sit-ups and chin-ups. These programs are really suited to developing strength endurance, not speed and power.

Kenny Croxdale
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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Mon May 04, 2009 10:26 am

Matt Z wrote:"Initially, a novice or an intermediate will increase power and/or speed with limit strength exercises." - Kenny Croxdale

Wouldn't a boxer who's never weight trained fall into this category?
Hey Matt,

Yes, a boxer (anyone) who has not weight trained will increase power and/or speed initially.

Evander Hollyfiled did some weight training. He worked with Dr Fred Hatfield on his program. http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html

One of the real puzzles of a boxer's training is the distance running most of them do. I suspect the majority of boxers have TOO much distance running in their program.

As we know the Law of Specificity needs to be utilzied in an athletes program. The Law of Specificity.

Hatfield's "3-Minute Drill" are much more specific to the aerobic need of a boxer.
"Training ONLY limit strength movements will make you stronger. That inpart because more Type IIB are being converted to Type IIA.

What you end up doing is trading power and/or speed for strength." - Kenny Croxdale

Maybe so, but boxers are constantly performing explosive movements every time they hit a heavybag, spar, work on focus mits, etc. The only way a boxer could train only limit strength movements would be to stop boxing.
That true.

I was replying to your statement, "Some are just oldschool and still believe that lifting makes you slow and musclebound (which is a myth by the way)."

Lifting heavy weight is not completely a myth. The "old school" guys were right in the regard that constantly lifting heavy weight would decrease your power and speed, at some point.

"A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters" examines the strength, power and speed implications of these three groups of athletes.

The data in this research article provides an insite into the effects power and/or speed when primarily strength training is utilized (Powerlifter).

The effects on strengh and/or power when the emphais on traing revolves around speed training (Sprinters).

And the effects of a Conjugate Training Program on strength, power and/or speed. (Olympic Lifters) Conjugate Program are those in which two different traning methods or use. Olympic Lifter combine strengh and power movements into their program.

Kenny Croxdale


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