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Post by aman » Fri May 08, 2009 1:55 am

Heavy deadlift and squat on same day may lead to oevrtraining and injury.

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Post by KPj » Fri May 08, 2009 4:47 am

If by Squat and DL you mean sets of 1-5 for each exercise then I would agree. But, you can certainly train them on the same day. My work out for the next 4 weeks will be, on a Monday, Sumo DLs followed by Front Squats. I'll quite often do DL's or Squats followed by another squat variation for higher reps, and love doing a heavy squat folllowed by rack pulls of 5+ reps per set. And i'm certainly not a freak of nature....

There's so many factors that influence your recovery that it's pretty difficult to say you can't do this or that. For example, it's amazing how much more you can get away with if you don't take any sets to failure (intentionally) - which is something i've done for the last couple of years. Not to mention having a recovery strategy (outside of sleep and diet) - like foam rollings, stretching (static and dynamic), general active recovery days, scheduled regular deload weeks etc. Overtraining is very rare, but under recovering is probably very common.


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Post by pdellorto » Fri May 08, 2009 8:02 am

Working out 6 days a week like that might be okay for a while, but you'll burn out pretty quickly. That's a lot of work and not much recovery. Unless you're lifting as a full-time job and spend the rest of the time resting, it's going to catch up to you fast. That's why you see workouts 2-4x a week in the stickies. Starting Strength, 3x a week. Mahler, 2x a week plus cardio. Westside for Skinny Bastards, 3x or 4x a week (depending on how you choose to do it). You won't see 5-6x a week because it's really stressful. The only folks who get away with 6x a week week-in week-out are professional athletes, and they've been through a process that weeded out the folks who couldn't keep up.

The three basic rules of lifting are: lift heavy, eat well, rest well. If you're doing 6 days a week, you're probably not going to be able to lift that heavy, and you'll be working out so hard you won't rest well.

As for the arms:

Don't be fooled by the lack of curls.

All of those workouts are working your arms. Only WS4SB and the Ironman bodybuilding routine do it with isolation exercises, but all of them involve the arms.

Deadlifts: forearms get a lot of work gripping the bar.
Bench Press: triceps get a major workout finishing the press.
Shoulder Press: Same as bench press.
Pullups: With an overhand grip, your forearms get a lot of work. Neutral grip, your biceps get involved. Chinup/underhand grip, your biceps come into play. This also goes for the lat pulldown, if the workout includes those.
Rows: Biceps are involved in pulling the weight towards you.

Plus you add in the fact that deadlifts and squats and power cleans (if you do Starting Strength) work so much of your musculature that they cause the whole body to grow...your body won't leave your arms out of the growth process even if you don't work them directly.

Arm exercises aren't left off of the workouts because they don't think you need arm exercises. Extra ones are left off because you've already done enough arm work. You just didn't work the arms by themselves.

However, if you're certain that you need additional arm work, just set aside 10 minutes or so at the end of your workout. Do like 3 sets of 10 bicep curls (choose any kind at all, really) alternated with 3 sets of 10 tricep pushdowns (if you've got a cable) or lying triceps extensions (if you don't). You might find you have to go light because you're already a bit tired from doing chinups and squats and bench pressing, but that's a feature, not a means you're really working those arms.

All that said, it's your workout. If you want to do ABCABCx and add in extra arm work, you can. We're just trying to let you know what the potential downsides are.

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Post by Johnny » Fri May 08, 2009 11:21 am

Thanks,I got it. So I should stick to my upper/lower routine, right? I still want to seperate the legs' exercises into one day anyway.

Then is this routine ok or it's still too much packed?
First day
Bench Press
Bent Row
Shoulder Press
Upright Row
Lying Triceps Extension

Second day
Stiff-leg Deadlift
Sumo Deadlift
Calf Raise
Leg-Hip Raise

3set each exercise with progressive loading, starting at 10-12 reps in the first set.

As for the reason I want to include upper arms exercises is because my upper arms are seem small relatively to other part, especially comparing to my forearms. And that looks kinda antic.

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Post by TimD » Fri May 08, 2009 11:41 am

I think that your new grouping is a bit better. Day upper looks ok, most major areas covered, beach work at the end and only one exercise. The leg day, though, is a good choice of exercise, but you may find that doing dquats, SLDL's and Sumo's on the same day might be a bit much after a few weeks when you start getting stronger. Might want to have two separate leg days., alternating each . upper.lower1, rest, upper, lower 2, rest. Using your choice of exerises, plus a quad dominant I've thrown in, it might look like this.
Upper 1
Squat, semi stiff DL, then the rest of your choices
Upper 2
Sumo DL's, lunges or step ups, the rest of your choices.
Done like this, you're still hitting all the lower body muscles, just Day 1 is quad dominant and Day 2 is hip/ham dominant.

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Post by Johnny » Sun May 10, 2009 4:48 am

It's just like you said, Tim. My thighs were killing me when I tried to do the Sumo's today. I'll take your advice doing two seperate legs days. Thanks, and for Peter too.

The rack and other stuff just send to my apartment yesterday. Don't have to bother go to gym is one good thing, but workout alone feel kinda weird.

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Post by Johnny » Sat May 16, 2009 10:27 am

I've achieve my first humble goal yesterday, squat 100kg for 5 reps
(80kg weight plates + an 20kg olympic barbell if I don't misunderstand it)
But I'm still working on the proper stiff-leg deadlifts form. When I try to put down the barbell, my knees kinda get in the way of it.

Also, I have some miscellaneous questions.

I slightly feel my back is working when I do BB Bent-over barbell row (my torso is about 30degree angle from horizontal, other than that I try very hard to make it in proper form). I can feel something at my lats but not at my middle back (or maybe this is just because I do the rows after pull-up). I can feel some soreness after workout but I just don't actually feel burning sensation when I'm working on it.

I've lifted weight barefoot. I read the topic about the right shoes here that barefoot lifting is fine, right?

A little meal after workout should be had within an hour with carb+protein.
I guess my best choice would be egg white plus some oranges. But if I lift so late like at 11pm and go to bed at 1am, should I still eat them or should I change to drink some non-fat milk instead?

About squat and deadlift on same day, I think it might not be a problem for me now because I still don't lift that heavy although I feel so tired to do DL after squat. My lumbar is doing fine. Still, I think I might change my routine to push/pull to seperate squat and DL next month.

I appreciate all answers and suggestions as always.

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