does exercise order matter?

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Gantz
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does exercise order matter?

Post by Gantz » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:03 pm

does exercise order affect how well you perform? like say are you able to bench a bit more if you do it in the middle of your routine instead of at the beginning? i know it sounds kind of silly, but i want to know from your personal experiences.


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Post by caangelxox » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:29 am

for me, it depends on my goal and what muscle I want to build the fastest at the current moment for what I am trying to accomplish. The exercise done first is usually the one where you are the most fresh at and will get faster gains than the exercises in the middle if your routine. This is why we always say...

leg work first
then upper body

1. power explosive work
2. squat or deadlift
3. upper body movement (either a bench press, row, shoulder/military press, or pull up/pulldown or all 4, but picking whatever order you want first).

above is only a guidline for those who do full body in one day. The rule is strengthen the weak, stretch the strong.

example - if you have tight pecs (stronger pecs, weaker back), you would want to do rows (retraction) first before bench press (protraction). If you have tight elevator muscles, you want to do the depression muscles first. same with the legs...whatever is tight, leave last or out completly or once a week. whatever your goal is, do first.

thats just how I see it. I want to work on the weaknesses first and stretching the tight muscles before even think about working out the tight muscles because they can get even tighter.

If you have rounded shoulders, that means your pecs are tight and you need retraction (back work: rows) and serratus anterior activation/lower trapz. What none of us like is pain and aches and stiffness and I am a pain preventor. If I have pain, I find a way to get rid of it at that very second and I am very good at doing that. its always do to a tight muscle (no pulls, strains, sprains, or anything like that).

I don't want to tell you to do bench press first (if your goal is a bigger chest) unless you have good upper body posture (no rounded upper back and no rounded shoulders) and your back is strong

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Post by Rik-Blades » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:22 am

I think it reallly depends on a few factors.

1. Warm up
2. Age
3. Exercise order/Program

I don't believe most people warm up correctly. Laying down on the bench from cold and performing 15 reps at 50% may get the blood flowing, but wont really 'throw coal on the fire'. This is why these people perform better say 15-20 mins in to the workout. Heart rate will be right up and your probably starting to burn fat. I'm used to low carbs now, so burning fat for fuel is more natural for my body. If I was a high carb guy, my body would probably start to shut down 20 mins in to the workout.

The younger you are, the more likley you'll be able to switch things on quicker than the older lifter (thats just my opinion, I don't have any real eveidence, just makes sense to me).

If I decide to do a heavy upright press before doing bench, my bench performance is always under par. Personally, I cant get my antierior delts to assist bench, when they are fried already. But thats because i'll put max effort into the upright press. I guess if I didn't go all out, it would be more of a warm up. I just ensure my upright press and bench are 48-72 hours apart.

Just my experience

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Post by KPj » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:44 am

My first exercises are the ones i want to improve the most. They're the most important exercises in my workouts.

I do an upper lower split though so the choice of exercises is easier. Anytime i've done a full body routine, I start with legs. Only time I wouldn't do that is if an upper body lift was lagging behind, then I would put it to the start so that I can give it everything.

KPj

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:41 am

Rik-Blades wrote:I don't believe most people warm up correctly. Laying down on the bench from cold and performing 15 reps at 50% may get the blood flowing, but wont really 'throw coal on the fire'.
Rik,

I agree that most individuals warm up incorrectly. The problem is usually that they turn their warm up into a workout. By the time they get to their top set, they are spent.

A warm up prepare youf fot you top set of the exercise. That means you want to use an economy of sets and reps so the you are able to perfom you best effort with your top set.

While a warm up get the blood flowing, another part of it is preparting the central nervous system.
This is why these people perform better say 15-20 mins in to the workout. Heart rate will be right up and your probably starting to burn fat.
I'd agree that it probably takes you approximately 15 minutes or more for warm ups. However, burning fat may not be the objective.
I'm used to low carbs now, so burning fat for fuel is more natural for my body. If I was a high carb guy, my body would probably start to shut down 20 mins in to the workout.
Research shows that it usually take an individual about 20 minutes to get into the fat burning zone. Fat has often been compared to a log in a fire place. The log takes a while to catch fire and burn.

Carbohydrates are the kindling (twigs). The burn first and light the log (fat).

The carbohydrates burn first, just like the twigs.
The younger you are, the more likley you'll be able to switch things on quicker than the older lifter (thats just my opinion, I don't have any real eveidence, just makes sense to me).
From what I've seen, the length of a warm up has more to do with the mental/emotional need of the individual.

In my 40 years of training (I am 60), my warm up have always been short. Pavel Tsatsouline addressed this issue in his book, Beyond Stretching...that most individuals have more of a psychological need to perform extented (lengthy) warm up.

With that said, the psychological need of an individual need to be addressed just as much as the psysiological needs. Enough warm up need to be performed so that the individuals mental/emotional state is addressed while making sure the individual doesn't kill himself/herself before they get to their top work set.
If I decide to do a heavy upright press before doing bench, my bench performance is always under par.
That a problem with everyone. I agree with two of the other posters:

"My first exercises are the ones i want to improve the most. They're the most important exercises in my workouts." KPj

"...it depends on my goal and what muscle I want to build the fastest..." caangelxox

Kenny Croxdale


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Post by Gantz » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:57 pm

all right. thanks for your opinions. so the first exercises are usually the most important.

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Post by Jungledoc » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:58 pm

I just noticed this in the Creasy article that Robert mentioned in another thread:
"Won't putting the deadlifts second in the workout reduce their effectiveness?

"I used to be under the impression that if you want to get something better you absolutely have to train it first. Now I know you can make just as good or even better gains if you learn how to cycle it the right way. What you see here is that you can train something more frequently if you're not missing lifts or going to failure all the time."
I just thought I'd toss it in.

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Post by Kram2 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:28 pm

This is an interesting topic. So basically the idea of pre-exhaustion is false?

Not to go off topic, but to do just that, I noticed a lot of the regular posters have very good information. Aside from the information on this site, do you all have exercise research journals that you frequent? If so, I would be interested and very grateful if you could post some links!

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Post by pdellorto » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:16 pm

Kram2 wrote:This is an interesting topic. So basically the idea of pre-exhaustion is false?
I don't think it's false, but it falls under what Doc quoted - if you cycle it properly, and if putting another exercise first fulfills a training goal for you...then it's fine.

Generally, you prioritize your important lifts first - what's important depends on your goals.

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Post by pdellorto » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:18 pm

Kram2 wrote:Not to go off topic, but to do just that, I noticed a lot of the regular posters have very good information. Aside from the information on this site, do you all have exercise research journals that you frequent? If so, I would be interested and very grateful if you could post some links!
I pretty much read these forums, everyone on EliteFTS and T-Nation, read the Performance Menu forums, read every book I can find in the library, and dig around on sites like Charles Staley's and other name-coaches, read blogs, etc. And more, actually. Plus I ask questions of my coaches and observe other people's training.

I also get the NSCA journal, but it's never as interesting as the previous stuff I mentioned. :)

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Post by TimD » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:29 pm

Kram2, pre-exhaustion has it's place, with certain goals in mind. Some coaches like to use it in a prepratory phase, for conditioning purposes, with faster pace programs. The idea being to to burn out the smaller groups first, and make the main larger compound moves harder. Ian King and Istvan Javorek come to mind here. For bodybuilding, the same idea applies. HOWEVER, this would NOT be a good strategywhen working for maximal strength;

As to the next question, Pete pretty much covered it, but I'd throw in crossfit as welk, even though elitere fitness and the performance menu are spinoffs and very similar.
Tim

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Post by caangelxox » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:12 pm

my leg day example order...

warm up with RDL for 2 sets to get the hamstrings and glutes ready to fire (after my rolling and dynamic stretching and some glute activation)
deadlift
pull throughs
lunges
one legged deadlift

one thing u can do to make it a full body workout all in less than an hour (after you are done deadlifting) is put upper body work between lower body exercises. Yesterday I did seated rows with 2 second hold shoulder blade squeeze between each set of pull throughs. My gym has 2 handles I can use for each arm to make sure I am using & working both sides equally. I also alternate between one arm alternate and both arms together each set to mix things up a bit and work some core.

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Post by Kram2 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:50 pm

Thanks guys. Anything to help, I'll read it!


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