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Negative Reps

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:50 pm
by quadfrog
How effective are negative movements with resistance and do they work muscles the same as conventional repetitions? I am looking specifically at doing negative chins on Back/Bicep/Ab day, at the end of my workout. I remember that, in the 80's, negatives were very popular with bodybuilders, who claimed they "shocked" the muscle into new growth. What other negative movements may I consider besides chins, and should I do them the same day as the conventional movements? Thanks!

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:11 am
by Nevage
I often do them on things like chins or anything you get to a sticking point on. The idea is that the concentric phase of a contraction reaches failure before the eccentric phase so you can kick out a few more negative reps after reaching failure with the concentric phase. I wouldn't do them on everything though maybe only exercises you've reached a plateau on, I think it puts a lot of pressure on your CNS.

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:58 am
by xshawnxearthx
excuse my ignorance, but what is a negative rep?

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:35 am
by stuward
Most muscles are stronger in eccentric contractions than concentric. Negative reps take advantage of that by overloading muscles beyond what's achievable with concentric movements.

Google "negative reps" and you'll get more info.

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:41 am
by stuward
Quadfrog, I do negatives for calves once in a while. Just go up on 2 feet, down on 1.
Push presses act like negatives if you use leg drive to get the bar up and then resist it on the way down.

Some muscles seem to respond better than others to heavy eccentrics but you could do them with almost anything if you have a partner.

Re: Negative Reps

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:59 am
by Kenny Croxdale
How effective are negative movements with resistance and do they work muscles the same as conventional repetitions?
Quadfrog,

Eccentrics (negatives) are an overlooked component of training. Eccentrics compose half of just about every exercise and movement you perform.

For the most part, increasing you eccentric strength will increase you concentric strength, power and speed.

Eccentrics work the muscles a bit differently. A great article on them is Warren Frost "Eccentric Movements..."
http://www.strengthandconditioning.org/ ... aining.pdf
I am looking specifically at doing negative chins on Back/Bicep/Ab day, at the end of my workout.
Putting them at the end of your workout is a good place.
I remember that, in the 80's, negatives were very popular with bodybuilders, who claimed they "shocked" the muscle into new growth.


Just about anything new you do provides some "shock" to your muscles.
What other negative movements may I consider besides chins, and should I do them the same day as the conventional movements? Thanks!
[/quote]

Chris Thibaudeau's "Accentuated Negatives" provide you with some more movements. http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_arti ... c_training

Another version of eccentrics is Altitude Drops/Depth Landings, such as dropping off a box and sticking the landing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5bA1iRCUxk

Altitude Drops elicit a different training effect compared to heavy, slow eccentric movements. Altitude drops can be use with other exercises, such as the bench press.

Kenny Croxdale

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:44 am
by frogbyte
That PDF makes me want to try eccentric calf movements even more. Just need to find some semblance of a baseline first though.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:21 am
by quadfrog
Thanks for your generous feedback...will research it and implement some of this stuff into my training...let you know how it works for a 59 year-old. Don't worry...I'm not new to the gym; I train 4 days-a week and have no shoulder, elbow, or back issues. I'm just looking to "switch it up" this fall with a new approach.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:09 am
by Nevage
Gret articles Kenny loads of interesting points.

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:05 am
by Kenny Croxdale
quadfrog wrote:Thanks for your generous feedback...will research it and implement some of this stuff into my training...let you know how it works for a 59 year-old. Don't worry...I'm not new to the gym; I train 4 days-a week and have no shoulder, elbow, or back issues. I'm just looking to "switch it up" this fall with a new approach.
Quadfrog,

At now 60, my expertise is "Here's what NOT to do". I have and continue to experiment with a lot of things. Finding what works is a bit like panning for gold. You only need a few pieces of gold to get rich. You have to sift through a lot of training information to find some great pieces of "training gold" ideas.

Unforutnately, that applies to everyone. Einstein said, "Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing".

Pretty much the same things work for someone, like myself at 60, as for soemone in their 20s, 30s, etc. The main difference is that you recover much better when you younger and it takes longer when you are older.

Kenny Croxdale

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:15 am
by KPj
I think when you're younger you get away with a lot more, too. Crappy form and crazy amounts of volume. You can do all that and make good progress and not get injured. I believe it will always catch up on you eventually. I'm sounding old before my time here, i'm only 24, but, for whatever reason, I don't seem to get away with much. I dread to think what i'll be like when i'm older, but for now i'll continue being a form and 'structural'/movement freak, and keep shooting for the balance between working towards my goals without wrecking any joints any more than I already have!

KPj

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:12 am
by Kenny Croxdale
frogbyte wrote:That PDF makes me want to try eccentric calf movements even more. Just need to find some semblance of a baseline first though.
Frogbyte,

Warren Frost "Eccentric Movement..." article is one of the best that I have seen. Let me provide a bit more feedback on eccentric training that falls in line with Frost article.

Eccentrics with up to 150% of you Concentric...NOT!

Many article state that you can peform let's say an eccentric bench press in which you lower the weight with up to 150% of your max bench press. That's one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.

That would mean if you could push up 300 lbs in the bench press, you could lower 450 lbs down to your chest. I guarantee 300 lb bench presser who attempts to lower 450 lbs to their chest will fined the bar wrapped around their neck.

Frost Eccentric Load Recommendations and MINE.

Frost recommends maximum heavy eccentric loads of 110-120%. This MAKES sense. That would mean the MOST a 300 lb bench presser would use in an eccentric movement would be 330-360 lbs.

However, that does NOT mean a 300 lb bench presser should use 330-360 lbs in an eccentric bench press.

Before moving on let me address one of my "pet peeves". I am anal. The majority of individuals often refer to eccentrics as "Eccentric Contractions".

There is NO such animal as an "Eccentric Contraction". An eccentric movement is defined as a lengthening of the muscle via lowering weight.

Contraction means to SHORTEN. Thus, an "Eccentric Contraction" means you are lengthening and shortening the muscles at the same time. That is NOT possible. It's an oxymoron. It like the expression "Bitter-Sweet"...it CANNOT be both bitter and sweet!

Kenny's Eccentric Load Recommendation

Example based on a 300 lb bench presser. Someone who can push up (concentric CONTRACTION) 300 lbs.

Start any eccentric resistance movement exercise with a submax. A submax would be something less than 300 lbs. (Supramax loads are define as those above you concentric contraction. Thus, a 310 eccentric would be a "Supramax" load).

The first week of your eccentric bench press training program begin with a load like 250 lbs for 2-4 reps for about 3 sets. Lower the weight should take 2-6 seconds.

As with any new exercise, you want to "introduce" your body to it. By doing so, you MINIMIZE the any soreness and allow the muscles time to get acclimated. (Hans Selye's General Adaptation Syndrome)

The second week you can increase you eccentric bench press load to let's say about 270 lbs. The third week, you can bump it up to about 290 lbs.

Just as with any other exercise you want to allow some time to introduce the body to a new movement and then progressively increase the load each week.

2) Place the Eccentric bench press/exercise at the end of your workout.

3) Perform Eccentric ONLY Strength training infrequently. The Soviet athlete eccentric only strength training was approximately 10% of their annual training. (Secrete's of the Soviets/Dr Michael Yessis).

Eccentrics can be a bit hard on one's recovery system, no matter you age. Thus, limit their use.

4) Employ some Altitude Drops/Depth Landing Eccentrics. Altitude Drop Curl (bench press, any exercise) can be performed just as dropping off a box and sticking the landing as illustrated it the video that I posted.

Altidude Drops/Depth Landings are plyometrics WITHOUT the rebound, jumping back up. All you do is "stick the landing" as you would in a dismount in gymnastics.

"Altitude Drop Muscle Activation"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftkE_Xmzyi0

About 3/4 of the way through the video above, "Altitude Drop Muscle Activation" is demonstrated.

5) Start ANY Altitude Drop/Depth Landing/"Altitude Drop Muslce Activation" exercise with a VERY LIGHT LOAD or START you drops from a very short distance.

That because:

Mass X Acceleration = Force

That meaning the hevier an object is traveling the greater its force.

Or as some else once said, "Jumping out of a 6 story building won't kill you. It the sudden stop you have to worry about."

Kenny Croxdale

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:15 am
by Kenny Croxdale
KPj wrote:I think when you're younger you get away with a lot more, too. Crappy form and crazy amounts of volume. You can do all that and make good progress and not get injured. I believe it will always catch up on you eventually. I'm sounding old before my time here, i'm only 24, but, for whatever reason, I don't seem to get away with much. I dread to think what i'll be like when i'm older, but for now i'll continue being a form and 'structural'/movement freak, and keep shooting for the balance between working towards my goals without wrecking any joints any more than I already have!

KPj
KPj,

Bashing "old people" again. How sad that you have to beat up on "old people" to make youself feel good. Where did you mother go wrong???? ...:)

Kenny

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:19 pm
by Jungledoc
So, "old" is anyone 24 and up! We're ancient, Kenny! :lol:

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:28 am
by Kenny Croxdale
Jungledoc wrote:So, "old" is anyone 24 and up! We're ancient, Kenny! :lol:
Yea, but Tim was declared legally dead last year. So, being ancient ain't that bad...:)

Kenny