Squats- Knees dive inward

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tross
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Squats- Knees dive inward

Post by tross » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:05 pm

When performing squats both of my knees tend to dive inward when going from sitting to standing phase.

I tried different positions such as foot position and wider stance but still my knees dive in. I did have a better outcome with narrower stance.

Should I strengthen my abductors? Perform squats with theraband around knees which will force me to keep my knees in good alignment?

Recommendations and advice on how to fix the problem would be helpful.

thanks.[/b]

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Post by TheHeb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:26 pm

I think you mean adductors, and not abductors; as far as I understand it, adductors play an important role in squats, and abductors not so much.

Really I think the best way to do it is exaggerate shoving your knees out at the bottom until your adductors get stronger. Keep squatting.

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Post by tross » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:52 pm

Adductors are the muscle that adduct or bring the legs to midline.

If my knees are "diving inward" toward midline than I want to counter that force which is what the abductors do. My abductors may be weak and are unable to counter the pull from the adductors.

It could also involve my internal rotators over powering my external rotators. When in the squat position the femur may be rolling inward. We rely on our external rotators to counter that motion.

I think by focusing on strengthening my abductors and external rotators and consciously maintaining good form the problem will eventually take care of itself.

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Post by frogbyte » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:22 pm


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Post by stuward » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:08 pm

tross wrote:Adductors are the muscle that adduct or bring the legs to midline.

If my knees are "diving inward" toward midline than I want to counter that force which is what the abductors do. My abductors may be weak and are unable to counter the pull from the adductors.

It could also involve my internal rotators over powering my external rotators. When in the squat position the femur may be rolling inward. We rely on our external rotators to counter that motion.

I think by focusing on strengthening my abductors and external rotators and consciously maintaining good form the problem will eventually take care of itself.

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I'm not saying you're wrong but Mark Rippetoe has a different opinion.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/texas_bbq.htm

Here's Mike Robertson's take on it.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_arti ... _squatters

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Post by tross » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:51 pm

Great post.

I just do not agree with Mark Rippetoes approach.

I like Mike Robertson's approach-
"Now, we could argue biomechanics until we're blue in the face. Is it weak adductors? Weak glutes? Weak hammies? And depending on what research we're looking at, almost any of those answers could be valid. For now, though, I'm with functional movement guru Gray Cook — instead of isolating a muscle, let's just try and correct the pattern."

I will try therabands around the knees to provide both resistance and stimulation to help correct the pattern.
Last edited by tross on Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by caangelxox » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:24 pm

its the glutes you need to strengthen.

look up all the glute articles on t-nation.com do clams, glute bridges, monster walks, fire hydrants, etc.

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Post by KPj » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:29 am

That's what I love about Gray Cooks stuff. He makes everything simple. Honestly, if anyone's guilty of "paralysis by analysis", it's me so Gray Cook was/is a breath of fresh air.

So, as he says, just correct the pattern. Bottom line is, your knees cave in. You need to get them pushed out, no matter what you want to call it. If you trained with me and it kept happening after a few cues, I would put a band around your knees. If it didn't correct itself in a couple of sets (it often does), I would just have you squat like that for a few weeks. It's fixed it every time for me and, I still couldn't tell you whether it was adductors or abductors, or whatever.

Of course you could still just be squatting incorrectly. It's not always a weakness thing, or a flexibility thing, but can also simply be 'a form thing'.

KPj

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Post by Jebus » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:32 pm

I would video tape myself, from different angles, to figure out if there is anything that seems wrong.

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Post by Jungledoc » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:08 am

tross wrote:I just do not agree with Mark Rippetoes approach.
I tend to choke a bit on statements like this. Never mind the fact that he is probably the most knowledgeable strength coach in the world at the moment, he gives a logical and cogent explanation of the physiology involved.

Yes, adduction is moving the femurs toward the mid-line, and abduction is moving them away. But it's not so much that either one is weak. If you allow your knees to cave in, the exercise won't benefit your adductors. Read Rip's statement again. As he says, it isn't intuitively obvious, but he explains it.

Knees caving in is mostly a matter of learning form well. If you can't lift your current weight without doing it, then you need to lift lighter until the groove is well-greased. Whether you use bands, or just the cue to "push the knees out" or "spread the floor" doesn't matter as much as correcting this.

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Post by KPj » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:39 am

There was also a study done which concluded that as the hips increases in flexion, glute med becomes an internal rotator, as opposed to an external rotator/abductor. This actually makes perfect sense, since the anterior and posterior fibres of glute med have different/opposing functions and, the mechanical position of the joints will determine function. Obviously as the joints move around, alignment changes, and so will the function of various muscles.

I've seen the suggestion (I think from Bill Hartman, but don't quote me) that considering this, it could also be a lateral hamstring weakness.

Point is - when you read about the function of muscles it's normally from the perspective of a static posture. When things start moving around it all gets a lot more complicated. People like Rip have been doing this and studying this for years and years. If it was all as simple as the text books say, there would be no room for discussion...

Again, though, just fix the pattern. It doesn't really matter what's weak, the fact is, you can correct it. Who cares what you're specifically correcting if you get the job done anyway. It's nice to know, of course, but it's not necessary to know.

KPj

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