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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:40 pm
by Ricky
stuward wrote:You could say it's an indicator of where you lack conditioning. In other words, you're using muscles you might have been neglecting before. You can make progress without pain. You can also have pain without progress. Overall though, you should feel different after your workout.
I have been doing the same workouts for over two years (with increased weight over time) and I still get sore. That said, I have a tendency to push myself in everything I do.

If you can get results without muscle soreness I guess it's all good though. I don't think I would trust that, myself (but I'm also not an expert).

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:51 pm
by stuward
It depends on your definition of soreness. If you're doing a once a week body part split taken to failure, you will probably be more sore than if you were doing a 3 times a week whole body routine stopping short of failure but it wouldn't necessarily be more productive.

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:57 pm
by nygmen
stuward wrote:You could say it's an indicator of where you lack conditioning. In other words, you're using muscles you might have been neglecting before. You can make progress without pain. You can also have pain without progress. Overall though, you should feel different after your workout.
Yeah, I agree with stu and the Good Doctor.

The only time I get DOMS is when I do something new or haven't done in awhile, OR I under eat.

So typically, I see DOMS as a bad thing.(Unless I threw in a new lift for whatever reason.)

I constantly have a tired muscle somewhere, constantly. Whether it be my chest, lats, tri's quads etc, something is typically tired but not normally sore.

Also, I'm with Peter, in that, I like adding weight, and not being in pain because of it. ;)

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:22 pm
by Stephen Johnson
I think that Frankie has left the building. The thread is no longer about his question.

Look for him to start another "muscle confusion" thread. He obviously doesn't like what he's heard so far.

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:57 pm
by Jungledoc
Ricky, Stu and Erik have said pretty much what I would have said. DOMS occurs when you do something that you're not used to, or do things with poor technique, etc. You can have DOMS without progress or progress without DOMS. If you are pushing hard enough to have it all the time, I'll bet you are not making as much progress as you would with more cautions but steady progression. It may in fact be an indication that you are not recovering well between workouts.

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:38 am
by KPj
Yeah, doms is weird. I can have the best workout of my life and have no DOMS the next day. Where as, I remember my Dart board first went up, I played for an hour or so. My arm was killing me for about 3 days. Could hardly straighten it. However, I would hardly call playing darts an 'effective workout'.

The guy i'm training for the 'Calling all Bodybuilders' thread never actually got all that sore when we first done the rep day, despite the workout pretty much covering everything horrible you can put in a workout. However, the last rep day (which i've still to update) caused some serious DOMS. He said he couldn't hold his phone up to his ear for long and struggled to get to sleep due to the pain! He was sore for 3-4 days. That was week 4 of the same workout and he has been improving every week. Strange.

KPj

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:40 am
by pdellorto
nygmen wrote:The only time I get DOMS is when I do something new or haven't done in awhile, OR I under eat.
The first one is a common cause. Exercises with a strong eccentric element - lunges, depth jumps or plyo pushups, slow eccentric holds, negative-only chinups, glute-ham raises - are also a common cause. But you can do concentric-only exercises like sled dragging or Prowler pushing or tire flipping or box jumps, get stronger and improve for the next workout, but not feel sore.
nygmen wrote:Also, I'm with Peter, in that, I like adding weight, and not being in pain because of it. ;)
Yeah. The thing is, I'll use DOMS as a sign of work too. But it's not the best or only sign. It's a bad thing if it's the only sign you use - you get into that "I must leave this workout wrecked" mode, as if this workout was the end-all and be-all of training. It's not, it's a step in a series of workouts designed to improve your body and your performance.

Let me put it this way - if my max reps or my max weight goes up, I'm improving and I know the workout worked. If they don't, even if I'm sore after the workout, I know it didn't.

So if I do something this weekend and make myself sore, but the week after I'm not doing more reps, more weight, showing a better time, etc. - it wasn't productive. And productive is all I care about.

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:59 am
by robertscott
I ALWAYS get DOMS in my chest and hamstrings. Doesn't matter if it's light reps, heavy reps, a new exercise or an exercise I've been doing for weeks.

Been that way since I started training, and I assume it'll probably be like that forever. Doesn't bother me, I've gotten used to always having a sore bodypart, and can quite easily push through the pain when training. I don't lose any strength because of the DOMS, just makes my warm-up sets sting a bit.

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:18 am
by Jungledoc
Robert, does the DOMS tend to go away as you do your warm-ups? Do you ever deload? Does the DOMS resolve by the end of the deload?

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:45 am
by Stephen Johnson
robertscott wrote:I ALWAYS get DOMS in my chest and hamstrings. Doesn't matter if it's light reps, heavy reps, a new exercise or an exercise I've been doing for weeks.
How is your flexibility in those two areas, compared to the rest of your body?

Do you fail suddenly within a set (for example a strong 7th rep then unexpected failure on the 8th) when training these muscles?

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:10 am
by robertscott
Jungledoc wrote:Robert, does the DOMS tend to go away as you do your warm-ups? Do you ever deload? Does the DOMS resolve by the end of the deload?
yeah pretty much, by the time I get to my work sets it doesn't really bother me. I do deload every 6 weeks or so, usually dictated by how much my shoulder hurts, when it gets to being sore all the time I'll have a week where I just go to the gym just once and do medium/heavy hang snatches and loads of shoulder rehab stuff - face pulls, ext rot, YTWLIs etc.

So it's not so much DOMS that inspires the deload, just how sore my shoulder is (which isn't DOMS, it's just a temperamental shoulder)

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:14 am
by robertscott
Stephen Johnson wrote:
robertscott wrote:I ALWAYS get DOMS in my chest and hamstrings. Doesn't matter if it's light reps, heavy reps, a new exercise or an exercise I've been doing for weeks.
How is your flexibility in those two areas, compared to the rest of your body?

Do you fail suddenly within a set (for example a strong 7th rep then unexpected failure on the 8th) when training these muscles?
my flexibility in these ares is about the worst on the planet I'd say. My hamstrings are tight due to APT, and my chest is tighter than a drum through too much benching.

As for failing suddenly in a set, I don't have that problem. It's usually a case of the reps gradually slowing down with maybe 1 'grinding' rep. What would it mean if I did?

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:35 am
by ApolytonGP
I do very occasionally get "bone weariness". Like an ache in the bones. I remember that well from HS wrestling, but thankfully have only approached it in my recent year of diet/exercise. It's different from DOMS, though.

And doing the same thing (even to failure with regular upticks of weight), seems to have made my body DOMS resistant. Haven't had that since last summer!

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:24 am
by frogbyte
I still hold to my theory from that old thread of mine that DOMS is mainly tied to a change in hydration due to the inflammatory response to muscle damage. So if you're doing the same amount of damage every day (and not so much that you can't recover in steady state) you won't get that DOMS component. And as pdellorto mentioned, heavy eccentrics do more damage.

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:53 pm
by Ricky
pdellorto wrote:Yeah. The thing is, I'll use DOMS as a sign of work too. But it's not the best or only sign. It's a bad thing if it's the only sign you use - you get into that "I must leave this workout wrecked" mode, as if this workout was the end-all and be-all of training. It's not, it's a step in a series of workouts designed to improve your body and your performance.
That's pretty much me XD

Although I've noticed the harder I work out the more sore I get.

Hmmm... There's some good advice here people -- thanks. I know I need improving in chest and I'll take it into account today while changing up my routine a bit.

I still plan on being at the gym at least 3 hours today, though ^.~

Thanks for the advice!