is working out shoulders really necessary ?

KPj · Post by **KPj** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:17 am

frogbyte wrote:Well I'd much rather stand than sit. I'd rather sit than hunch over a bench. Standing press is more fun than bench press - squat is more fun than seated leg press - etc etc. I think most people would agree there?

I would rather stand than sit wouldn't rather sit than "hunch" over a bench - although I don't "hunch" over it. This is just preference though.

frogbyte wrote: I'm using the term "lockout" to mean when they very end of an exercise is able to be locked out into a position of stability, where it would be relatively easy to continue to hold in that stable position. A squat has a lockout - a leg extension machine does not (the end is just as difficult as the halfway point).

I straighten my arm at the bottom of a row....

KPj

frogbyte · Post by **frogbyte** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:23 pm

Yeah, but the bottom of a row is the beginning of the rep. The end of the concentric contraction is the only place where a "lockout" can occur.

Bent over rows are ok, and I do them standing with DBs, but... I don't like them all that much because it's hard not to cheat by using your back.

ApolytonGP · Post by **ApolytonGP** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:14 pm

All pulling (flexing) motions lack a lockout. (Deadlift is not a pull, either.)

Jebus · Post by **Jebus** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:55 pm

ApolytonGP wrote: (Deadlift is not a pull, either.)

Then what is it?

Han · Post by **Han** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:21 pm

Don't feed the troll!

ApolytonGP · Post by **ApolytonGP** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:01 pm

Jebus wrote:
ApolytonGP wrote: (Deadlift is not a pull, either.)
Then what is it?

A squat variant.

NightFaLL · Post by **NightFaLL** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:19 pm

ApolytonGP wrote:
Jebus wrote:
ApolytonGP wrote: (Deadlift is not a pull, either.)
Then what is it?
A squat variant.

They've recently done studies on that showing that it's not actually that similar to a squat mechanically speaking.

The only reason, I think, PLers rotate them is simply because they do use some similar musculatures.

ApolytonGP · Post by **ApolytonGP** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:34 pm

variants are similar with some differences. back squat, high back squat, hack squat, front squat, smith squat,deadlift.

All variations on the push your feet and extend your legs motion. Of course different ones vary in the amount of hamstring involvement, in the ancillary use of the back and or upper body for weight stabilization, etc. But they're all bent compound leg extension movements with straightening of the knee and hip joints.

They're a lot more similar than you'd think. Especially if you get good quad involvement into the beginning of the deadlift movement (as Rippetoe advises).

Very different from an L seat or a ham string curl or (the direct opposite mechanically) a lying cable bent leg flexion.

NightFaLL · Post by **NightFaLL** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:06 pm

I honestly think you talk about a lot of things you don't know about.

ApolytonGP · Post by **ApolytonGP** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:13 pm

I love getting dangereous with small amounts of knowledge.

But, I really do have a point included with all the trolling. both motions hit the quad and the glute and involve the major movement of each muscle: leg (knee) extension for the quad and hip extension for the glute.

Agreed, there is some involvement of the hamstring in the deadlift (and even in the squat), but that is in terms of the minor motion of the hamstring hip extension and some stabilization. Similarly, there's actually minor quad involvement in the L seat, using the minor motion of the quad (hip flexion). But I would not call the L seat a "push".

NightFaLL · Post by **NightFaLL** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:17 pm

ApolytonGP wrote:I love getting dangereous with small amounts of knowledge.

But, I really do have a point included with all the trolling. both motions hit the quad and the glute and involve the major movement of each muscle: leg (knee) extension for the glute and hip extension for the glute.

Agreed, there is some involvement of the hamstring in the deadlift (and even in the squat), but that is in terms of the minor motion of the hamstring hip extension and some stabilization. Similarly, there's actually minor quad involvement in the L seat, using the minor motion of the quad (hip flexion). But I would not all the L seat a "push".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19910816

You should read more pubmed and less t-nation, you should also stop commenting on lifts that you do not do.

You honestly give a lot of advice here to people asking questions that is so far off base I feel like I'm reading bodybuilding.com forums.

ApolytonGP · Post by **ApolytonGP** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:20 pm

That study describes differences, but within similar lifts. Try comparing the L seat or bent leg cable flexion to either. Those will be WAY more kinematically different.

P.s. don't get mad at me. We are both AARR brothers.

NightFaLL · Post by **NightFaLL** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:29 pm

ApolytonGP wrote:That study describes differences, but within similar lifts. Try comparing the L seat or bent leg cable flexion to either. Those will be WAY more kinematically different.

P.s. don't get mad at me. We are both AARR brothers.

This discussion has nothing to do with L seat or bent leg cable flexion.

It's squat vs deadlift that I was referring to and they're very different lifts.

ApolytonGP · Post by **ApolytonGP** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:32 pm

Is the Camero very different from the Trans Am? They have differences, sure. Yet, they also fit well into a category because of their many similarities.

NightFaLL · Post by **NightFaLL** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:45 pm

So you're saying if I wanted to improve one, I'd buy a part designed for the other?

That's what you're saying, essentially.