When to recomend steady state cardio

Ask or answer questions, discuss and express your views

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, parth, stuward

Jebus
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1106
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:04 pm

Post by Jebus » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:14 am

lol it even says on this website, the maine website, that HIIT is better for fat loss.

http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/HIIT.html


User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:34 am

Hoose, here's a good article on the subject of what to use and when, by Cosgrove, complete w/some references.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... f_fat_loss
Tim

User avatar
Wouter
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 551
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:52 am
Location: Antwerp, Belgium

Post by Wouter » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:57 am


Jason Nunn
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:35 pm

Post by Jason Nunn » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:31 pm

hoosegow wrote:Now, now Nevage. We don't want to confuse the issue with silly stuff like facts and scientific studies and what not.

So KPj, Kenny, Nunn, et al, going back to part of my original question, how do you convince certain people, via information, that HIIT is superior to cardio.
I really don't have much of a problem telling people intervals is better. Like someone said earlier, most people don't like doing LSD. So, all you have to do is give them a good reason not to. I generally will explain EPOC to them.

Jason Nunn
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:35 pm

Post by Jason Nunn » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:39 pm

Jungledoc wrote:Remember that Tabata's original study (yeah, I've looked at it myself, but I don't have it in front of me now, so this is an old man's recall) compared 4 minutes of intervals with 45 minutes of SSC. In VO2max improvement the two groups were equal. In fat loss, the interval group won. So instead of speculating or guessing about which one burns more calories, when you're just using calorie counts as a surrogate for fat loss anyway, why not look at the actual results in fat loss?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, wasn't the interval group doing 2 days per week of SSC also? I was thinking one group did intervals and SSC, while the other group just did SSC. I think I remember reading that.

*It's also important to note that the intervals used in the study were at 170% VO2. So, basically if the first interval isn't hard as $h!t, you're not doing tabata.


callipygian50
Novice
Novice
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:14 pm

Post by callipygian50 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:03 pm

Jason Nunn wrote:*It's also important to note that the intervals used in the study were at 170% VO2. So, basically if the first interval isn't hard as $h!t, you're not doing tabata.
Reading this, I can tell I don't know the definition of VO2 max. Just reading the word, I'd always assumed you could only do 100% or less of VO2 max. I googled around and one of the five pages at least mentioned that it's the maximum used in one minute. But none said anything about whether this was one minute within some longer sustained period or gave other details.

Now I see that the 20 second sprints can be 170% of VO2 max! How is VO2 max defined and measured?

Jason Nunn
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:35 pm

Post by Jason Nunn » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:35 pm

callipygian50 wrote:Reading this, I can tell I don't know the definition of VO2 max. Just reading the word, I'd always assumed you could only do 100% or less of VO2 max. I googled around and one of the five pages at least mentioned that it's the maximum used in one minute. But none said anything about whether this was one minute within some longer sustained period or gave other details.

Now I see that the 20 second sprints can be 170% of VO2 max! How is VO2 max defined and measured?
VO2 is volume of oxygen consumed. A VO2 max would be the maximum amount of oxygen consumed. It's usually expressed as milliliters per kilogram per minute. An elite marathon runner may be 80mL/kg/min. It's usually only measured in a clinical setting. However, there are several submax tests you could run in a regular gym. Google bruce or balke protocol.

To exercise at 170%, you would need to take a measure to find out where 100% is, then exercise 70% harder. Basically, you are exercising at an intesity where the cardiorespiratory system cannot keep up. You become primarily anaerobic at this point. Hence EPOC

callipygian50
Novice
Novice
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:14 pm

Post by callipygian50 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:54 pm

Thanks Jason--
I'm curious how they figure out that someone hit 170% VO2 max. Do they monitor the athlete's breathing and measure oxygen use both during and after the sprint? (I'm assuming if you are in oxygen deficit you need to catch up during rest. )

Sorry for what are probably obvious questions but I don't know anything about this (but I am interested in HIIT.)

hoosegow
Veteren Member
Veteren Member
Posts: 2003
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:40 am
Location: Texas

Post by hoosegow » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:23 pm

Thanks everyone. I've learned a lot. My best answer was that there was some sort of voodoo mojo stuff going on. And, no Doc, I aint opening up a gym.... yet.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:08 pm

hoosegow wrote:Thanks everyone. I've learned a lot. My best answer was that there was some sort of voodoo mojo stuff going on. And, no Doc, I aint opening up a gym.... yet.
Yeah, well, stay in touch. I'm still thinking of good names.

hoosegow
Veteren Member
Veteren Member
Posts: 2003
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:40 am
Location: Texas

Post by hoosegow » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:49 am

Okay, so I slept on it and I think I have it figured out in my head.

An average client comes in with the overall goal of "getting toned" or "losing weight." They, like many of us, were raised to think SS cardio is the way to go. As part of your initial meeting you tell them something like:

You explain to them that SS cardio is inferior to HIIT when it comes to better fitness. You give them an explanation of what HIIT is all about. Then you explain why it is better than SS cardio in that the overall effect is that it increases your metabolism for up to 38 hours where SS cardio will increase your metabolism just for the duration of doing the cardio. The net effect is that you lose more weight on HIIT than you do with strictly cardio.

Okay, now I have a follow-up question. I understand the effect of excess fat on a person has on cardio vascular health. You now have a client who isn't markedly overweight and they are more concerned with heart health. Let's say they have no history of a heart attack or stroke and no symptoms of angina. Basically, it is your typical middle aged person who just wants to live longer. Maybe they have high blood pressure on high cholesterol - not dangerously high, but perhaps borderline on needing meds. Do you still recommend HIIT over SS cardio? Perhaps I should do some research, but I'm thinking about this on the fly. In other words, if better cardio-vasuclar health is the goal, is SS cardio better?

User avatar
stuward
moderator
moderator
Posts: 6648
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Halifax, NS

Post by stuward » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:07 am

Progression is the key in cardio as well as strength training. Doing SS cardio you heart goes up to say 60% of max. In HIIT the heatbeat goes up to say 90%. Starting someone off at that could cause issues. It makes more sense to me to progressively increase the intensity, sort of the way you would with strength training. Most of the volume in the program will be a relatively lower heart rates, just like most of the volume in your strength program is at relatively lower weights, but the part that makes you stronger is the peak effort part. But you don't start someone off with heavy singles and you don't start someone off with HIIT.

KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Post by KPj » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:29 am

stuward wrote:Progression is the key in cardio as well as strength training. Doing SS cardio you heart goes up to say 60% of max. In HIIT the heatbeat goes up to say 90%. Starting someone off at that could cause issues. It makes more sense to me to progressively increase the intensity, sort of the way you would with strength training. Most of the volume in the program will be a relatively lower heart rates, just like most of the volume in your strength program is at relatively lower weights, but the part that makes you stronger is the peak effort part. But you don't start someone off with heavy singles and you don't start someone off with HIIT.
I agree. That's what I do. I pretty much always have someone do some kind of "interval training", but the intensity is introduced slowly. I'll just have them go between "slow" and "just a little faster". Lets say on a bike, level 13 with 100% effort would equate to a HIIT style "sprint". Well, I'll have them go from level 3, which is nice and easy, and slow, to about level 6, just increasing the pace a little. We'll increase the level and effort gradually over weeks/months. I'll always watch them carefully, too, to make sure they don't look too distressed. We use the heart rate monitors on the bikes. I question their accuracy but, it gives me an idea of the increase and decrease. I'll always ask how they felt afterwards, too. So, if they were to come back and say they felt a little dizzy when they got home, then i would know I pushed it too far. I generally always er on the side of caution, though, and haven't had any problems yet.

Something I normally always tell clients who are new to the gym and completely untrained is that the most important aspect for them whilst in the gym is just getting better than they used to be. I tell them that just walking in the gym for the first time is "progress". From there we just need to establish a structure and a baseline for everything, and gradually get better. I could always push clients like this further, easily, and have them puking etc, but I just don't believe in it. It's kind of the same theory behind programs like 5-3-1, where you're supposed to start with weights lower than you can actually handle. So it'll take a few weeks or cycles before you're breaking records... 1 step back for 2 steps forward.... Only difference is, with these clients, they have no previous PR's to beat, other than actually entering the gym....the tortoise really did beat the hare :smile:

KPj

frogbyte
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by frogbyte » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:47 am

I've just go with "The Hoosegow".

So wait, are you a trainer now?

pdellorto
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 5252
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 8:43 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Post by pdellorto » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:53 pm

frogbyte wrote:I've just go with "The Hoosegow".
The Hoosegow
Get Strong. PRISON Strong.


***
By the way, I'm basically with KPj on this - it's not a tough sell, and I tend to start intervals very carefully and build them up just like lifts.

I will tell people to feel free to do cardio on their own if they want, especially if they want to lose weight or just like it (I train a triathlete, for example, and one client just likes to go exploring by bike). But they don't have to do it - it's a nice calorie-burning bonus but it ranks below the intervals and weight training and their diet in terms of what'll get them results. I don't recall anyone complaining they didn't get enough treadmill action. :D


Post Reply