Back pain from twisting movements! Help!

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Jason Nunn
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Post by Jason Nunn » Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:10 am

WebAddict wrote:What I've come to realized recently is that all those core exercises are great, but if you can't take it outside the gym to the real world they are useless.
Not really sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that these exercises don't carry over to the real world? Which exercises are you saying this about?


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Post by WebAddict » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:47 am

What I'm saying is that for some people 'these' exercises do not carry over to the real world. 'these' being all stationary core stabilization exercises.

That doesn't mean they are crap, not at all, I noticed improvements with my achy back when taking up core stabilization exercises!
BUT I still ran into trouble every now and then and I didnt understand why.

Now I realize it was due to faulty movement patterns. I feel pretty stupid for taking so long to realize that..

Don't quote me on that one but I remember reading somewhere "I see folks in the gym deadlifting big weights with perfect form, and then, bending over rounding the back to untie their shoes. Or loading a plate onto the bar"

It takes a lot of effort to use perfect form all the time, everyday! And you have to know what perfect form is, which I, regarding rotary movements didn't.


All the core stabilization (especially stationary) in the world would'nt have helped me with my fv(k up movement patterns.
To clarify this, I actually believed that you had to keep your hips perfectly still during activities like wood chopping. This resulted in more rotation at the lumbar spine leading to pain.
Looking back that was pretty stupid. But I guess other people have similar problems.

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Post by Jungledoc » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:55 am

WebAddict wrote:What I'm saying is that for some people 'these' exercises do not carry over to the real world. 'these' being all stationary core stabilization exercises.
For whom would they not "carry over to the real world?" Carry-over into the real world is the whole point. In the real world you do not need to be able to twist your lumbar spine strongly. You don't need to generate force there. But that's what most "core" exercises develop. It is a part of those same faulty movement patterns.

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Post by WebAddict » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:42 pm

Jungledoc wrote:
WebAddict wrote:What I'm saying is that for some people 'these' exercises do not carry over to the real world. 'these' being all stationary core stabilization exercises.
For whom would they not "carry over to the real world?" Carry-over into the real world is the whole point. In the real world you do not need to be able to twist your lumbar spine strongly. You don't need to generate force there. But that's what most "core" exercises develop. It is a part of those same faulty movement patterns.
I'm not getting what you are saying here.

Really, I'm not sure. Are you saying core exercises are bad because they teach faulty movement patterns?

I would agree to that concerning sit-ups, crunches and the like, not the Plank for example.


I'm just saying that you will not cure everybody from back pain by telling them to do this or that exercise! You have to look at how they move, especially in everyday activies!

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Post by Jungledoc » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:10 pm

WebAddict wrote:I'm just saying that you will not cure everybody from back pain by telling them to do this or that exercise! You have to look at how they move, especially in everyday activies!
Agreed. But when you say that "good" core exercises "don't carry over into the real world" it sounds like you're saying that a stable core isn't useful in day to day life. It works both ways. It won't do a person any good to be correcting movement patterns in their daily life if they are going to the gym and doing a bunch of loaded flexion and twisting. And you will cure SOME back pain by telling people to stop doing harmful exercises.


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Post by WebAddict » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:19 am

True!

So, what are good twisting exercises that won't kill my back?

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Post by Jungledoc » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:31 am

WebAddict wrote:True!

So, what are good twisting exercises that won't kill my back?
(sigh)

There aren't any. That's the point. Avoiding twisting exercises if you want to preserve your back.

Exercises like "Russian twists" (although I think that there are different exercises that go by this name), wood chops, if done correctly emphasize throacic mobility, and I suppose you might call them "twisting". I was suggesting the "anti-rotation" exercises as an alternative to exercises that involve twisting at the lumbar spine.

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Post by Jason Nunn » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Here's a good article on the subject.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... o_training

Basically, it says that you train the t-spine and hips for mobility, the lumbar spine for stability. I'll give a better answer later. Gotta train some folks.

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Post by Jason Nunn » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:27 pm

Simply put, what I do is start people with the stabilization exercises, then progress them toward the integrated movements like chops.

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Post by A. moss » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:12 pm

Wow, I thought for sure that would have been spam...

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Re: Back pain from twisting movements! Help!

Post by Jungledoc » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:07 pm

dennis druft wrote:Any back exercise routine worth its salt includes work for the oblique abdominals. The oblique abdominals consist of 2 pairs of ab muscles. There's an internal oblique and an external oblique on each side of the trunk (in front). The obliques enable you to twist and tilt your spine, and they help stabilize the trunk, otherwise known as the core.
That doesn't contradict anything that's been said.
dennis druft wrote:This beginner level exercise involves an ab crunch (or ab curl, if you're into Pilates) combined with a rotational movement of the shoulder. Experts recommend doing a back exercise routine every day -- this exercise can be included in your routine on some or all days.
If after doing above doesn’t work discuss with the best.
Crunches do very little for the obliques. They basically help to increase lumbar flexion, which has no functional value, and can do a lot of harm. There are lots of exercises (already cited) that help to increase lumbar stability without lumbar flexion.

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Post by Ironman » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:08 pm

It was spam. It was some very strange spam though.

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Post by Jungledoc » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:10 pm

Sometimes it all happens at once. And just when I was picking a fight with him.

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Post by Ironman » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:48 pm

You had him nailed too.

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Re: Back pain from twisting movements! Help!

Post by caangelxox » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:37 am

Jungledoc wrote:
dennis druft wrote:Any back exercise routine worth its salt includes work for the oblique abdominals. The oblique abdominals consist of 2 pairs of ab muscles. There's an internal oblique and an external oblique on each side of the trunk (in front). The obliques enable you to twist and tilt your spine, and they help stabilize the trunk, otherwise known as the core.
That doesn't contradict anything that's been said.
dennis druft wrote:This beginner level exercise involves an ab crunch (or ab curl, if you're into Pilates) combined with a rotational movement of the shoulder. Experts recommend doing a back exercise routine every day -- this exercise can be included in your routine on some or all days.
If after doing above doesn’t work discuss with the best.
Crunches do very little for the obliques. They basically help to increase lumbar flexion, which has no functional value, and can do a lot of harm. There are lots of exercises (already cited) that help to increase lumbar stability without lumbar flexion.
I agree jungledoc and the power house muscles (internal obliques, external oblique, rectus abdominis and transverse abdominis....they all work together and compress the abdomin. Transverse is the deep 3rd layer behind the rectus abdominus and you engage it by holding your navel into your spine. Your six pack muscles (rectus abdominus) is worked by flexion, but there are other ways to train it as well rather than just crunches like you said. reverse crunches, lying supine and lifting a weight over your head keeping your navel into your spine and activating your internal obliques for stability, etc. I dont like crunches myself and will prefer reverse crunches and any other exercise over regular crunches anytime.

For all abdominal exercises, you must keep your navel into your spine, engage those internal obliques for stability, and keep the lower back on the ground. Once your lower back arches, that means you stopped engaging your powerhouse and more pressure is put on your lowerback, which causes back pain.

Doing rotational work is the same thing as far as enganging your transverse abdominis and internal obliques for stability. Once those 2 muscles stop working, pressure is put on your lower back, which results in twisting of the lower back (rotational movements) or hyperextension of the lower back (flexion/extension movements)


I am glad I am taking anatomy class this semester, I am learning a alot. =)


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