Details/Deadlift

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bam
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Post by bam » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:02 pm

NightFaLL wrote:
bam wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:I, personally, have a fairly unconventional deadlift..
Like you said, you have an unconventional deadlift. If on the other hand you want to do a conventional DL... I'd prefer to learn Rippetoe's method..
Conventional doesn't necessarily mean better, was the point I was making.

I'm sure rippetoe is great for beginners, but for anything advanced I'd look elsewhere.
I see. Do you understand that when people on a forum talk about "the deadlift" they are talking about the conventional deadlift? It's fine to say, "hey, I do things my way" but I'm not sure what value that adds without offering up any references. I suppose your point is that it's OK to wing it. Rippetoe has 144 pages on deadlifting... what detailed information are you bringing to the discussion? Feel free offer up some advanced deadlifting resources that you use for your unconventional deadlifting form...


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Post by NightFaLL » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:20 pm

bam wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:
bam wrote: Like you said, you have an unconventional deadlift. If on the other hand you want to do a conventional DL... I'd prefer to learn Rippetoe's method..
Conventional doesn't necessarily mean better, was the point I was making.

I'm sure rippetoe is great for beginners, but for anything advanced I'd look elsewhere.
I see. Do you understand that when people on a forum talk about "the deadlift" they are talking about the conventional deadlift? It's fine to say, "hey, I do things my way" but I'm not sure what value that adds without offering up any references. I suppose your point is that it's OK to wing it. Rippetoe has 144 pages on deadlifting... what detailed information are you bringing to the discussion? Feel free offer up some advanced deadlifting resources that you use for your unconventional deadlifting form...
Rippetoe did not invent the deadlift - nor does rippetoe know everything about the deadlift.

When people refer to the 'deadlift' they are not referring to the 'conventional' deadlift only. I don't know why you would think that.

Deadlift is simply picking up a bar from the ground and standing up with it - there's no description of it that requires you to do it the way rippetoe states.

I'd also be willing to bet that not a single top tier deadlifter follows the information rippetoe gives to a T, if at all.

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Post by NightFaLL » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:25 pm

My point, also, wasn't to 'wing it' - it was that rippetoe is not the be-all end-all of form and if anything he is simply a place people should start.

You will see very few 'advanced' lifters still sticking to rippetoe's basic layout - simply because at that point they understand their bodies better than he would.

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Post by Jungledoc » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:43 pm

Bam--I think you are misunderstanding Nightfall's point. He's not advocating winging it, but adapting to your own anthopometry. If he has odd segment lengths, he has to adapt.

Nightfall--you misunderstand Rippetoe. He is not just spouting his opinion, but giving the results of a detailed and insightful analysis of the mechanics and physiology of deadlifting. His basic principles of the DL are present in successful DLers at all levels. No, an advanced lifter may not follow his approach to setting up, but relative alignment of the bar always ends up being the same. His advice about set-up is an attempt to get the lifter into that position efficiently.

Also, to be clear, I'm not talking about where the bar is once you start lifting. I'm talking about shin angle, and the best way to set up initially.

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Post by bam » Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:46 pm

Jungledoc wrote:Bam--I think you are misunderstanding Nightfall's point. He's not advocating winging it, but adapting to your own anthopometry. If he has odd segment lengths, he has to adapt.
I hear ya but consider Jason Nunn's entry....
Jason Nunn wrote:Honestly, I hate the way Brandon deadlifts. Mainly his lack of setup. He just grips and rips. I prefer Cressey's method vs Rippetoe's. I feel like I can better engage the glutes and hammy's with the vertical shins. Plus, I have a very long torso in relation to my legs. I think my setup better utilizes my leverages.
Here we have a reputable poster who prefers one proven method over another proven method for two reasons. That's news I can use.


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Post by NightFaLL » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:06 pm

bam wrote:
Jungledoc wrote:Bam--I think you are misunderstanding Nightfall's point. He's not advocating winging it, but adapting to your own anthopometry. If he has odd segment lengths, he has to adapt.
I hear ya but consider Jason Nunn's entry....
Jason Nunn wrote:Honestly, I hate the way Brandon deadlifts. Mainly his lack of setup. He just grips and rips. I prefer Cressey's method vs Rippetoe's. I feel like I can better engage the glutes and hammy's with the vertical shins. Plus, I have a very long torso in relation to my legs. I think my setup better utilizes my leverages.
Here we have a reputable poster who prefers one proven method over another proven method for two reasons. That's news I can use.
And I, of course, contribute nothing to these forums and as such am not a reputable poster?

I have no doubt Jason knows a ton more than me, but I highly doubt he's telling you that there's only one way to deadlift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r--etdWUmc0 This is pretty much my deadlifting form spot-on, I don't really consider it sumo, though.. I've always thought sumo was extremely wide stance (similar to powerlifter squat).

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Post by pdellorto » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:39 pm

If that's how you deadlift, I'd say you deadlift sumo. Arms inside the legs, legs wide. How wide doesn't matter, it's the "wider than the arms" part AFAIK that makes it sumo.

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Post by KPj » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:36 am

Yeah I would agree that's a Sumo. I prefer to Sumo DL quite close these days, although last few weeks i've been doing ultra wide. I love the short ROM but need to ease my adductor into it.

In a PL comp the "deadlift" will be a mixture of conventional and sumo. Some people are better suited to Sumo DL's than they are conventional.

FWIW when I sumo DL i also prefer to get my shins right up to the bar when setting up. I also think one of the best things a "conventional" deadlifter can do is drop it for a while and work on Sumo.

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Post by bam » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:34 am

KPj wrote:I also think one of the best things a "conventional" deadlifter can do is drop it for a while and work on Sumo.
Why?

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Post by KPj » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:36 am

bam wrote:
KPj wrote:I also think one of the best things a "conventional" deadlifter can do is drop it for a while and work on Sumo.
Why?
Well, anecdotally, I've made conventional deadlifters train sumo for a while, improve on it, then go back to conventional to see old PR's fly up. This was mostly influenced by myself - a conventional deadlifter - where I feel Sumo DL has probably been one of the best things for it.

My theory is that conventional deadlifters tend to be very "back dominant" when they pull. Sumo forces you to use the legs and hips a lot more so in my mind, bringing up your sumo also brings up a weakness in a lot of conventional deadlifters.

KPj

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Post by Jungledoc » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:40 am

KPj wrote:I also think one of the best things a "conventional" deadlifter can do is drop it for a while and work on Sumo.
And vice versa?

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Post by Proper Knob » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:55 am

Here's a link to an electromyographic study comparing the differing styles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11932579

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Post by KPj » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:11 am

Jungledoc wrote:
KPj wrote:I also think one of the best things a "conventional" deadlifter can do is drop it for a while and work on Sumo.
And vice versa?
I've never actually trained a natural Sumo deadlifter so I couldn't really say. I have a couple of girls who I reckon are more suited to it but we're not really at the stage where I can test it out - yet...

With that being said, I think it would still apply. You'll typically have a greater back angle on conventional so in theory it should do more work compared to sumo anyway. However i'm saying this without having the experience of seeing a Sumo Deadlifters form breakdown with heavy weights and doing other exercises to try and determine what's typically weak with them.

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Post by Jason Nunn » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:12 am

Personally, I agree with doc. I think it depends on the individual's segment lengths. I have a female who has extremly long femurs in relation to her torso, so she does only sumo. If she does conventional, she has a tough time clearing her knees from the bar path.

I have really short legs in relation to my torso, so conventional suits me better.

My advise is to not try to fit round pegs into square holes. If you are better suited to one style vs. the other than I thinks it's wise to stick with that.


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