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Details/Deadlift

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:46 pm
by Jungledoc
Rippetoe advises to set up for deadlift with the bar over the center of the foot, 1-2 inches in front of the vertical shins. Then, when you grip the bar and get set to lift, the shins come forward into contact with the bar. The bar slides up the shins as you start extending the hips.

Cressey advises to set up for DL with the bar in contact with the vertical shins. This forces you to keep the shins more vertical when you set up, the knees slightly less flexed and the hips slightly more flexed than with Rip's approach. Again, the bar slides up the shins, but with less pressure against the shins. The skin gets torn up much less.

I have followed Rip's approach, but when I read Cressey's article a little light came on in my head somewhere. I've been trying his approach since, and I can conclude that at the very least my shins don't take the beating that they did before. My shins are completely healed for the first time in about 2 years. But how is it affecting my DL? I'm not sure yet. Last week I didn't get as many reps as I had hoped to, but when you are near your max the difference between 3 reps and 4 reps is pretty big. Today (week 3 of my 5/3/1 cycle) I'll see, as I have a record from 2 months ago doing the same weight. Then again, so what if it takes a couple of pounds off my DL? Should I care? I don't compete. If DLing with vertical shins is just as effective for making me stronger but without scabs or open wounds on my shins all the time, it will make my life better.

Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:47 pm
by Jungledoc
One more thing. I was hoping to get a few of you (especially you, Jason) to comment on the difference in technique between Jason and Brandon in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edQgnLa6stA

Brandon seems to have more of a forward angle on his shins, and his shins shoot back under the bar after it clears his knees. Jason's shins are more vertical, and his knees lock out earlier than Brandon's.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:25 am
by Ironman
Brandon seems to be almost all lower back. He needs to bend more like Jason did and get his glutes into it. He could probably add a whole lot of weight to it by just doing that.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:13 am
by KPj
I think a lot of this is individual.

I also like to stand up to the bar with my shins touching. This is just preference though. At one time I was a guy that tried to squat the weight up so was setting up too far away from it with the hips too low so shins touching the bar is something that helped me out. I felt more comfortable straight away so just stayed with it. The difference isn't really all that much, though. I notice that when you see people set up about 2 inches from the bar they then get down to the bar with hip AND knee flexion where as, when you see people walk up and touch with the shins, you'll see the just the hips going back, then they grab the bar. At this point the shins are about 2 inches from the bar, then you flex the knees and pull the chest up. At this point the difference seems pretty subtle between the 2. I know in SS Rip says "2-4 inches" from the bar. I can't imagine setting up 4 inches from the bar. But that's just me.

I think bigger guys will have a much harder time with the shins touching recommendation. I know Dave Tate has said this in a DL article, too.

KPj

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:41 am
by Jungledoc
Well, I was pretty sure that I'd get 2 reps at 315 today for a rep max, but no, I missed the first attempt. Usually if I miss a heavy lift there is no hope for a second attempt, but I went back and got the single. Possibly the slowest DL I've ever done, but the bar kept moving, so I thought I'd stay around. I should come back in a few days, set up the old way and see how I do.

By the way, page 111 of SS says "The bar should be about 1 to 1.5 inches from your shins."

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:04 am
by bam
seems relevant....
Tall people with long femurs, long tibias, and relatively short torsos will have a different starting position than short people with long torsos and short legs. Each person will have a different set of knee, hip, and back angles, but the correct starting position for everyone will have the previously discussed things in common: the shoulders will be slightly in front of the bar, since this is the position of the shoulder where the scapulas are plumb to the bar, the bar will be touching the shins, and the hips will therefore be in the position that best enables the knee extension that pushes the bar away from the floor. Of the three angles, the back angle will exhibit the most individual variability. The knee and hip angles are controlled by the lengths of the femur and the tibia, the collective lengths of which, are bent at the knee. Three inches added to the back would be nearly twice as important as three inches added to the legs, unless it is all added to only one of the bones. For example, our tall, long-legged person will have a more horizontal back angle, the back more parallel to the floor, than a person with short legs, who can easily get his chest up at a steeper angle to the floor.
Source: Rippetoe, 2e, p125

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:10 am
by NightFaLL
I wouldn't 100% go with what rippetoe says, while he does give good general form advice - it's not for everyone.

Essentially the best way to see how your form can improve is to have someone knowledgeable watch - or put a video up here, it'll save a lot of speculation and probably help fix your form much much faster.

I, personally, have a fairly unconventional deadlift.

I do a sumo/conventional hybrid with my hands gripping on the inside but my feet just barely shoulder width apart - with both of them pointing at about a 45 degree angle outward. The bar never touches my shins.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:13 am
by bam
The SS video is pretty useful. It shows several people of differing body types learning the main lifts while Rip gives them pointers.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:19 am
by bam
NightFaLL wrote:I, personally, have a fairly unconventional deadlift..
Like you said, you have an unconventional deadlift. If on the other hand you want to do a conventional DL... I'd prefer to learn Rippetoe's method..

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:34 am
by frigginwizard
I have to start with my shins at the bar, otherwise I tend to go up on my toes when I lift.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:00 am
by KPj
My SS is an older/second hand first edition. I don't have it infront of me but i'm sure it states 2-4inches. It's just one of the things I remember that SS says that I don't do. Another example is the elbows back in the squat. It sticks in my mind because I don't do it, i pull them forward....Not that it really matters that much.

You get these conflicts all over the place - Feet flat or up on toes when benching? Press straight up or towards the face? What about neck position in DL and Squat - should we look down, straight ahead, up? Drive the head back with the chin tucked??? Toes straight? Toes out? Flat shoes? Heel lift? High bar? Low bar?

The bias in most cases is going to be what has worked for the person describing it.

I have nothing on Rip but, when I'm teaching any of the big lifts, I describe a "spectrum" of technique. You have safe -> Perfect. I'll teach them how to lift safely first. When they get that, i'll explain about stance, grip, what to do with the head, feet, etc. What defines "perfect" can be a matter of opinion. In my mind, the grey area between "safe" and "perfect" is negotiable and down to what feels or works best for the individual.

My training partner is more Rip style in his DL. I'm not. We both make progress. There's 2 mad Rip fans in my gym who I think have been doing SS for about 10 years and squat elbows back. I squat elbows forward and I spread the floor apart. We all make progress so... at the end of the way, it's all the same...

KPj

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:12 am
by Nevage
I have a short torso and long legs so my deadlift position is pretty weird. For me to grab the bar in position I have to bend my knees quite a lot so my hips are quite low to the floor. This causes my glutes/quads to do more work than usual to get the bar off the floor. I usually have the bar nearly touching my shins, but used to have it touching. I find it easier for the shins to be vertical if the bar is touching, it makes me concentrate more on a pulling back motion rather than glutes/quads pushing.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:52 pm
by Jason Nunn
Jungledoc wrote:One more thing. I was hoping to get a few of you (especially you, Jason) to comment on the difference in technique between Jason and Brandon in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edQgnLa6stA

Brandon seems to have more of a forward angle on his shins, and his shins shoot back under the bar after it clears his knees. Jason's shins are more vertical, and his knees lock out earlier than Brandon's.
Honestly, I hate the way Brandon deadlifts. Mainly his lack of setup. He just grips and rips. I prefer Cressey's method vs Rippetoe's. I feel like I can better engage the glutes and hammy's with the vertical shins. Plus, I have a very long torso in relation to my legs. I think my setup better utilizes my leverages.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:49 pm
by JimKe
Doc--

I think the answer is in your question. Would you rather have a higher DL max or uninjured shins? I think KPj has it right--there's a spectrum of safety, and you want to be in it. Otherwise you're just splitting hairs--like ancient theologians arguing about how many angels could sit on the head of a pin.

Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:13 pm
by NightFaLL
bam wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:I, personally, have a fairly unconventional deadlift..
Like you said, you have an unconventional deadlift. If on the other hand you want to do a conventional DL... I'd prefer to learn Rippetoe's method..
Conventional doesn't necessarily mean better, was the point I was making.

I'm sure rippetoe is great for beginners, but for anything advanced I'd look elsewhere.