Squats or Deadlifts for in-season

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Bacchus1979
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Squats or Deadlifts for in-season

Post by Bacchus1979 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:47 am

Hey All -

I am int he middle of my deload week, and we started rugby training this week. Its an amateur mens league, but we train hard two days a week, and have matches or tournaments on weekends. I was initially going to stick with 5/3/1 through the season except doing one big lift a day instead of two, so the entire cycle would take six weeks. For assistance I would do some pulling movements, like barbell rows, and metabolic work, like complexes, to avoid burning out. The metabolic work is also because I have gained around 20 pounds as a result of injuries, and because my metabolism went a little haywire when I quiting smoking about 7 months ago.

I started putting my log up here around new years, so there isn't too much in it yet, but it is herehttp://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6570.

I am now thinking that instead of doing it that way I might do only one big lower body lift, pick squats, deads, or front squats, and keep both of the upper body pressing movements. That way I could do two lifts on a Sunday (say military presses and the lower body movement), and one on Wednesday, and still get through the cycle in three weeks.

I would love to hear anyones thoughts on what the relative benefits of one lower body movement over another might be in this scenario. Also, I am hoping to keep some gains coming during the season, but it it better to just space it out and not riskover-training? Am I overthinking this way too much :lol:

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Post by jackthestrat » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:43 pm

Is there a good reason why you don't want to just fold everything into a two day workout, Upper & Lower Body(Squat) on Sunday, Upper & Lower Body (Deadlift) on Wednesday?

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Post by Bacchus1979 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:32 pm

Yup - We train Tuesday and Wednesday which involves a lot of hard sprints which would mean if I did heavy legs on Wednesday it would be three days in a row of fairly intense leg work.

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Post by TimD » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:50 pm

Well, Dl's and Squats have a lot of overlap, and what you are attempting to do is basically an in season strength/maint type of thing, so why choose one over the other? Just alternate them from session to session. Keep the volume fairly low so as not to interfere with your inseason trainng.
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Post by Jason Nunn » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:24 pm

In my experiance, deadlifts have been very hard for inseason athletes to recover from. I would suggest either dropping them all together and adding in some extra posterior chain work or doing them with high handle trap bar. Jason Ferruggia actually wrote something recently about this as well.

http://jasonferruggia.com/drop-the-deadlift/

I would have to say that my opinion is similar to his.

Have you thought about switching and doing total body workouts? I will typically do this with my athletes and lower the volume inseason.

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Post by Bacchus1979 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:01 pm

Jason - thanks for the comment. Interesting. I was hoping to keep making at least some gains on the big lifts through the season, which was why I was looking at just tweaking the 5/3/1 and doing the complexes. In broad terms, what type of whole body routine would you recommend?

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:19 pm

Jason Nunn wrote:In my experiance, deadlifts have been very hard for inseason athletes to recover from. I would suggest either dropping them all together
Jason,

Deadlifts TAKE More Than They Give Back.

I agree with your assessment. The lower back is quickly and easliy over training. That the experience that I have had and what I have found in working with other powerlifers.

Dr Tom McLaughlin (biomechanics) also stated that.
and adding in some extra posterior chain work or doing them with high handle trap bar.


This is not a deadlift, it is a squat off the floor.
Jason Ferruggia actually wrote something recently about this as well.
http://jasonferruggia.com/drop-the-deadlift/

I would have to say that my opinion is similar to his.
Argee-Disagree

Parts of his article make sense while other parts do not.

Agreement

Drop The Deadlift--That meaning allow the bar to pretty much fall back to the floor.

Eccentrics overload the lower back moreso than any other muscle group. Thus, eccentrics quicly overtraining the lower back which make is more susceptible to injury and means more recovery time is necessary for your lower back.

Heavy deadlifts require 7-21 days of recovey time.

Disagreement

"A lot of deadlifting injuries occur from doing controlled touch and go reps."

Exactly, how did he determine this???

I am a proponent of not just "Touch and Go Deadlifts" but Deadlifts with a bounce. The bounce falls somewhat into the area of a plyometric. You learn to generate power off the floor, out of the hole.

Even better is to perform "Bounce Deadlifts" with bumper plates. This is a form of "Overspeed Traning."

Other Agree To Bounce

Hatfield's Power: A Scientific Approach (Page 39/Ballistic Training Techniques)

Charles Stale "The Bouncing Stiff-Legged Deadlift"
http://www.criticalbench.com/bouncing_s ... adlift.htm

Disagree

"When you begin lifting the bar you should never try to explode it up."

This is absurd. You NEED to explode (as much as you possibly can with a maximum load) off the floor.

My best pull is 617 lbs at 210 lbs. I blew the weight off the floor. Gravity caught up with me above the knees where I had to grind it out.

Mike Tronski (who I worked with) is a sumo deadlifter. Tronski has learned to blow the weight off the floor in his deadlifts.

Tronski at 240 lbs blew 705 lbs off the floor and then stalled just above his knees at the January 2011 California Fit Expo.

What is amazing is the power Tronski produced in coming off the floor. That because sumo deadlifters have a difficult time in breaking weight off the platform.

Disagree

"High handle trap bar deads."

This is a squat off the floor.

It's NOT a deadlift.

That means it is a completely different exercise that is more geared toward helping your squat, NOT your deadlift.
Have you thought about switching and doing total body workouts?


This makes sense. My recommendations would be on Olympic lifting movements for a variety of reasons.

1) Olympic movements work everything.

2) Olympic movements develop power for a power sport, rugby.

3) Olympic movements for the most part are "Ecentric-Less". Eccentric movements require more recovery time.

"Eccentric-Less" (Concentric Only) are less demanding, allowing for faster recovery.
I will typically do this with my athletes and lower the volume inseason.
Exactly. Less volume with and emphasis on power.

Kenny Croxdale
Last edited by Kenny Croxdale on Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Jungledoc » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:06 am

What could be better than a dialog between Kenny and Jason?

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:20 am

I wonder whether it makes sense to do any heavy lifting in-season for an athlete? Shouldn't that be done during the off-season?

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Post by stuward » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:56 am

Stephen Johnson wrote:I wonder whether it makes sense to do any heavy lifting in-season for an athlete? Shouldn't that be done during the off-season?
It probably depends on how "heavy" and the nature of the sport. I immagine most football players train heavy early in the week and are recovered by the weekend.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:02 am

Jungledoc wrote:What could be better than a dialog between Kenny and Jason?
Jungeledoc,

Jason Nunn

Jason's a smart guy. For the most part, I agree with him.

"Drop The Deadlift"

My disagreement is with some of the recommendations in Ferruggia's "Drop The Deadlift". Some of the information makes sense and some of it doesn't.

Ferruggia's Napoleon Complex

Ferruggia crowned himself as the King of Fitness!

Ferruggia has an impressive bio but it is hype like this that drive me nuts.

"Jason Ferruggia is a highly sought after, world renowned strength and conditioning specialist based out of the New York/New Jersey area."

"...one of the top fitness experts in the world today." http://jasonferruggia.com/about/

I've never heard of Ferruggia nor has any else on this board but Nunn until now. So, if Ferruggia was TRUELY World RENOUNED, he would be a household name like Ford, NBC, Michael Phelps, Mohommaed Ali, etc

The first paragraph and the last few sentences of his bio is crap that need to be flushed down a tolit.

Great People

Great World Renounded people never put crap like Ferruggia did in their bio.

That because EVERYONE know who they are!

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:05 am

stuward wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote:I wonder whether it makes sense to do any heavy lifting in-season for an athlete? Shouldn't that be done during the off-season?
It probably depends on how "heavy" and the nature of the sport. I immagine most football players train heavy early in the week and are recovered by the weekend.
Stu,

I agree that some heavy training could be performed, as long as it not too heavy. Thus, allowing full recovery prior to the 'game".

Kenny Croxdale

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:39 am

stuward wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote:I wonder whether it makes sense to do any heavy lifting in-season for an athlete? Shouldn't that be done during the off-season?
It probably depends on how "heavy" and the nature of the sport. I immagine most football players train heavy early in the week and are recovered by the weekend.
Football players are too beaten up from the game to crawl out of bed on Monday, much less do a heavy workout. By the time they recover from the beating, it's mid week - and time to prepare for the next game.

Not being a serious athlete I don't know what their in-season training is like. But even less physical sports like baseball, basketball and hockey have such long seasons and so many games, the players are all nicked up and tired towards the end of the season. Not really a good time to be doing a lot of weight work, at least I would think.

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Post by Bacchus1979 » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:58 am

A lot too think about here, thanks all for your feedback!

I agree with the "not too heavy" comments, which is why I was thinking of sticking with a 5/3/1 variant, since you never really get close to your max. I like the idea of adding some Olympic style lifts, though they have never been a part of my program before, you're never too old to learn some new tricks :)

Making some tweaks to the plan, and then off to try it out.

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Post by Bacchus1979 » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:03 pm

Football players are too beaten up from the game to crawl out of bed on Monday, much less do a heavy workout. By the time they recover from the beating, it's mid week - and time to prepare for the next game
Interesting comment - one of the reason I had thought about programming my heavy work on the Sunday after matches was because I remembered DeFranco had recommended this as the best time for it. I know t makes for a rough work-out, but I am interested to hear why you disagree.

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