Quick Workout Timing Question

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Pathoslogical
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Quick Workout Timing Question

Post by Pathoslogical » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:31 pm

Hey everyone, I just have a small question I wanted to ask.

I'm doing a mix of about 30 minutes of cardio (running usually, sometimes biking) and another 30 minutes of weight lighting during my workouts, but my question is in which order should I do them? Should I start with cardio and end with weight lifting? Vice versa? Should I split them in to 4 15 minute chunks and go back and forth between them?

Or, alternatively, am I just over-thinking this and it doesn't really matter at all? This option is entirely possible.

Thanks!


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Post by nygmen » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:24 pm

Doesn't really matter if you are eating appropriately for your goals

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Post by Jungledoc » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:26 pm

There would be some advantage in doing the resistance first, then the cardio. Some people like to do a little cardio (maybe 3-5 minutes?) as part of their warm-up first. For me your plan would be too much cardio and not enough weight, but that's just me.

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Re: Quick Workout Timing Question

Post by Stephen Johnson » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:28 pm

Pathoslogical wrote:I'm doing a mix of about 30 minutes of cardio (running usually, sometimes biking) and another 30 minutes of weight lighting during my workouts, but my question is in which order should I do them? Should I start with cardio and end with weight lifting? Vice versa? !
It depends on what you want to give priority to.

If you're more interested in muscular strength and size gains, do the lifting first. If you're trying to improve your cardio endurance, do the cardio first.

Be advised though that a strenuous first workout will compromise the amount of energy that you can put in the second. Doing a heavy set of squats in a weight workout will force you not to run as hard as you could if you were starting out fresh. Ditto with trying to do heavy squats after running hard for 30 minutes.

If you are trying for relatively high performance levels at both weights and cardio, you should do the workouts on separate days.

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Post by Pathoslogical » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:13 am

Sorry, I wasn't very specific, was I? I weigh 250 lbs, and am 6 ft 2 in. I used to weigh 295 lbs, so I'm down 45 lbs so far, but my main goal is to reach my target weight (about 200 lbs) as quickly as possible. Building muscle and getting a built body are, of course, ultimate goals of mine, and I'd like to shed off the pounds and discover a nice physique underneath, if you know what I mean.

So basically what I'm saying is that I'm not aiming to be an Olympic athlete, but a built person with about 7% bf. As such, my priorities are to lose weight first, and gain muscle second. Keeping that in mind Jungledoc (and others!), is the 30/30 split still the right way to go?

Hopefully that clarifies my goals and helps you to better answer my question.

Thanks again!


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Post by Oscar_Actuary » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:49 am

What is your diet like?
Typical week?

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Post by Pathoslogical » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:55 am

Oscar_Actuary wrote:What is your diet like?
Typical week?
Generally speaking: low calorie (2400-2800), high protein, low carb, low sugar, high fiber. Lots of fish, green vegetables, and lean meats. Fish oil and multivitamin pills, 1 each per day. I don't have specific meal plans set out, I just try to follow those guidelines, except for breakfast. During breakfast, it's basically fruits, egg whites, or oatmeal.

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Post by TimD » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:45 am

For fat loss, the best setup would be to do weights first, then cardio. But, quite frankly, it sounds like your doing the wrong kind, i.e. longer drawn out affairs to burn calories. Better would be intervals. See
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... f_fat_loss
Tim

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Post by Pathoslogical » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:20 am

TimD wrote:For fat loss, the best setup would be to do weights first, then cardio. But, quite frankly, it sounds like your doing the wrong kind, i.e. longer drawn out affairs to burn calories. Better would be intervals. See
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... f_fat_loss
Tim
Awesome article! I have actually been doing hiit on cardio already, ive currently been splitting that 30 minutes in to 2 15 minute hiit sessions at the beginning and end of my workout. Is this too long? It seems like the article suggests more like a 40 min resistance/weight training followed by a 20 minute hiit session... Does that sound right?

Also, is there a magic ratio for hiit? Ive heard about and done the following intensity ratios: 1low:1 high, 1:2, 2:3, 2:1, etc.

Lastly, 2-4 sets of 8-15 reps of 10 exercises 3x per week is the type of weight lifting recommended for fat loss in the article, right? I'm a bit confused because one of the articles seemed to recommend circuits. I'm assuming those 10 exercises should be compound ones and all 10 every day instead of "back/arms/legs day," right?

Once again, thanks for your time, as I now realize that my thread has become a design my workout for me one instead of a quick time question... Sorry!

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Post by stuward » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:16 am

40 min resistance/weight training followed by a 20 minute hiit session is just about ideal. Use that as your start state and adjust only if you have a good reason.

There are a number of HIIT protocols and all have slightly different effects. Obviously the higher the work/rest ratio the harder it is and therefore the less intensity you can use. You should experiment with a few sessions with one and then change. It's actually easier to do longer intervals first, then increase the intensity while shortening the cycle. The ultimate is Tabata (20 sec on, 10 off repeated 8 times.) Don't start with these.
I'm assuming those 10 exercises should be compound ones and all 10 every day instead of "back/arms/legs day," right?
try this circuit:
Plank
Front Squat
Bench or push up
Row
SL Deadlift
OH Press
Chin up
Paloff press
Bicep Curl
Tri Ext

Do them in a circuit moving from one to the other quickly. You may have to use multiple bars. You can substitute cable exercises for most of these. Dumbbells also will work.

You can play with the order and exercise selection. Get in 1 each of the following: Quad dominant leg, posterior dominant leg, horizontal and vertical press and pull, core stability, core anti-rotation and arms if desired. Alternate standing and floor exercises. Try to get each circuit complete in about 10-15 minutes. Get as many circuits in as you can in 40 minutes. Start with light weights and progressively increase resistance on all sets. Cycle reps/set in the 5-15 range, say 10-15 for 4 weeks, 8-12 for 4 weeks, 5-8 for 4 weeks, repeat.

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Post by stuward » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:01 am

I used to weigh 295 lbs, so I'm down 45 lbs so far, but my main goal is to reach my target weight (about 200 lbs) as quickly as possible.
Your diet looks very good. there are just a couple of points. First, eat whole eggs. Yolk contains choline which actually helps with fat loss. By themselves, egg whites are toxic, egg yolks provide the antidote (biotin). Don't be concerned about the calories. Egg yolks are very filling.

Lean meat is good but it's the meat part, not the lean. Yes, avoid processed meats (hot dogs, salami, etc) but don't avoid fattier cuts of fresh meats and organs. Don't be afraid of saturated fats. They actually increase HDL, reduce abdominal fat, increase muscle and overall have a health benefit. Coconut oil and meat are the best sources.

A little oatmeal is not bad but continue to avoid bread and anything else made with wheat. if you do eat wheat, eat whole wheat that include wheat germ. Again, the antidote to the toxin is in the germ. Still, it's better to avoid it as it provides no benefit. Get your fiber from vegetables.

Don't be in a panic to hit weight. Seek to improve your health. This means controlling your hormones. Once your hormones are balanced, and the way you're eating is they way to do that, the fat will take care on itself.

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Post by Jungledoc » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:12 pm

Pathoslogical wrote:...Lastly, 2-4 sets of 8-15 reps of 10 exercises 3x per week is the type of weight lifting recommended for fat loss in the article, right? I'm a bit confused because one of the articles seemed to recommend circuits. I'm assuming those 10 exercises should be compound ones and all 10 every day instead of "back/arms/legs day," right?
First of all, try hard not to be bothered by confusing information. This is an extremely complex subject, and there is bound to be many approaches, and differing ideas. Just keep trying to sort out the information, and then decide what you believe.

I believe that a good foundation of strength is important, regardless of your ultimate goals. I'd suggest more of a strength-oriented lifting routine (4 or 5 exercises each session, more in the 5-8 rep range, then use a circuit or a complex in place of your treadmill. It would be a lot more fun (do you enjoy running on a treadmill?).

Consider Stu's suggestion about basic movements. You wouldn't have to do all of that in every workout, but if you covered it all in 2 routines and alternated them, it would work well, say quad/v-pull/v-push/core one day, post chain/h-pull/h-push/anti-rotation core on the other. Those should be primarily compound movements. In the circuit or complex you could use all sorts of things, including isolation lifts. The object then would be to get your heart beating faster and get you breathing harder.
Pathoslogical wrote:Once again, thanks for your time, as I now realize that my thread has become a design my workout for me one instead of a quick time question... Sorry!
Don't apologize! That is how useful threads happen.

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Post by Pathoslogical » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:28 pm

stuward wrote:You can play with the order and exercise selection. Get in 1 each of the following: Quad dominant leg, posterior dominant leg, horizontal and vertical press and pull, core stability, core anti-rotation and arms if desired. Alternate standing and floor exercises. Try to get each circuit complete in about 10-15 minutes. Get as many circuits in as you can in 40 minutes. Start with light weights and progressively increase resistance on all sets. Cycle reps/set in the 5-15 range, say 10-15 for 4 weeks, 8-12 for 4 weeks, 5-8 for 4 weeks, repeat.
My planned circuit routine:
Chin-Up (I can't really do these, should I do assisted chin-ups or lat pulldowns instead?)
Pallof Press (Do you extend your arms forward from your chest or upwards above your head? I saw examples both ways. Is one better than the other? Lastly, should you change sides so that the machine pulls you left each rep for a set, then right next circuit?)
Front Squat
Bench Press
Straight Leg Deadlift (Should knees be bent more to focus on going lower or be locked and don't go as low to gain more benefits?)
Bent-Over Row (One dumbbell at a time or with a barbell?)
Dumbbell Overhead Press (Is seated or standing preferable?)
Dumbbell Bicep Curl (Barbell, Dumbbell, Hammer, or Concentration Curls? Any better than the rest?)
Dumbbel Tricep Extensions
Plank
Jungledoc wrote:Consider Stu's suggestion about basic movements. You wouldn't have to do all of that in every workout, but if you covered it all in 2 routines and alternated them, it would work well, say quad/v-pull/v-push/core one day, post chain/h-pull/h-push/anti-rotation core on the other. Those should be primarily compound movements. In the circuit or complex you could use all sorts of things, including isolation lifts. The object then would be to get your heart beating faster and get you breathing harder.
Any suggestions on how to split these workouts in to 2 circuits? Would that be more beneficial than huge 10-workout circuits?

My biggest issue here is reps per workout per circuit. I've heard numerous different suggestions about the amount of reps that should be done, all the way from 5 to 15. Any suggestions? I'm planning on doing 2-3 circuits per 40 minute workout window.
stuward wrote:You can play with the order and exercise selection. [...] Alternate standing and floor exercises.
Does this order of workouts seem optimal?

Any suggestions for good core stability/core anti-rotation exercises that I can add to this circuit? Where/when should they be added in?

Thanks for all of your help so far!

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Post by stuward » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:20 pm

You have a lot of questions here. I'll answer inside your post. Look for the bolded parts.
Pathoslogical wrote:
stuward wrote:You can play with the order and exercise selection. Get in 1 each of the following: Quad dominant leg, posterior dominant leg, horizontal and vertical press and pull, core stability, core anti-rotation and arms if desired. Alternate standing and floor exercises. Try to get each circuit complete in about 10-15 minutes. Get as many circuits in as you can in 40 minutes. Start with light weights and progressively increase resistance on all sets. Cycle reps/set in the 5-15 range, say 10-15 for 4 weeks, 8-12 for 4 weeks, 5-8 for 4 weeks, repeat.
My planned circuit routine:
Chin-Up (I can't really do these, should I do assisted chin-ups or lat pulldowns instead?) Assisted is better.
Pallof Press (Do you extend your arms forward from your chest or upwards above your head? I saw examples both ways. Is one better than the other? Overhead is a little more challenging. tony Gentlecore invented that version. Check out his site. Lastly, should you change sides so that the machine pulls you left each rep for a set, then right next circuit?) yes, do both sides.
Front Squat
Bench Press
Straight Leg Deadlift (Should knees be bent more to focus on going lower or be locked and don't go as low to gain more benefits?) Keep knees slightly bent.
Bent-Over Row (One dumbbell at a time or with a barbell?) Either will work.
Dumbbell Overhead Press (Is seated or standing preferable?) Either will work.
Dumbbell Bicep Curl (Barbell, Dumbbell, Hammer, or Concentration Curls? Any better than the rest?) All will work. They all have slightly different effects.
Dumbbel Tricep Extensions
Plank
Jungledoc wrote:Consider Stu's suggestion about basic movements. You wouldn't have to do all of that in every workout, but if you covered it all in 2 routines and alternated them, it would work well, say quad/v-pull/v-push/core one day, post chain/h-pull/h-push/anti-rotation core on the other. Those should be primarily compound movements. In the circuit or complex you could use all sorts of things, including isolation lifts. The object then would be to get your heart beating faster and get you breathing harder.
Any suggestions on how to split these workouts in to 2 circuits? Would that be more beneficial than huge 10-workout circuits? If you want a metabolic fat burning workout, do them this way. If you want a strength building workout, split it up. Eventually you should explore that option.

My biggest issue here is reps per workout per circuit. I've heard numerous different suggestions about the amount of reps that should be done, all the way from 5 to 15. Any suggestions? I'm planning on doing 2-3 circuits per 40 minute workout window. Start with higher reps and decrease reps (and increase intensity) every 4 weeks or so.
stuward wrote:You can play with the order and exercise selection. [...] Alternate standing and floor exercises.
Does this order of workouts seem optimal? Try it and see if you like it. Getting up and down is part of the challenge.

Any suggestions for good core stability/core anti-rotation exercises that I can add to this circuit? Where/when should they be added in? Read some of the recent posts in the General section. We've been discussing it recently.

Thanks for all of your help so far!
I hope this helps.


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