Belly Fat Increasing.

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Post by Ironman » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:01 am

NightFaLL wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:Either way, having metabolic syndrome can't cause efficiencies in fat storage that aren't there. The pathways used to convert glucose to lipids is inefficient from what i've read.
With the epidemic of obesity in the US over the last 20 or so years - which curiously coincides with a push towards low fat (ie high carb) foods from fatty foods - the pathways you mentioned, sadly, don't appear to be inefficient enough.
That's where the misconception happens - people aren't gaining weight because of carbs, they're gaining weight because of excess calories.

When you intake carbohydrates and fat, it causes fat oxidation to essentially stop - this means that if you're eating at maintenance the fat calories temporarily are stored as fat, once the carb calories stop being used - the fat that was stored is then released for energy.

Hence, energy balance.

When you intake carbohydrates and fat, and you're above caloric maintenance for the day - the fat is stored and never used, due to the fact you have an abundance of calories from carbohydrates.

So, essentially - it is actually the fat and carbs in a combination with a caloric surplus that is making american fat.

The main reason it has come along with the 'low fat' craze is because people don't pay attention to calories when things say low fat - the just eat as much as they want.
For one thing, it is not exactly the same in all people.

It is both calories and carbs that lead to weight gain. Or at least they are associated with weight gain.

More carbs means more insulin, which will shuttle more calories into the fat stores.

When you eat carbs it is turned into glucose and fatty acids. Any extra glucose is converted into triglycerides and stored as fat. What you stated is only true WHEN YOU ARE NOT IN A CALORIE SURPLUS. I don't know how much more clear that can be. Carbs are a very efficient energy source. You use them or they get stored as fat. Period.

Because of how quickly some carbs are digested, you have very little time to use the energy. So while you might not be in calorie surplus over the day in total, you ARE in calorie surplus for periods of time after a meal.

Try eating 2000 calories of veggies, then try eating 2000 calories of donuts. You will notice a difference.

Finally for some people the cause is actually the weight gain and the effect is overeating. Here is how it works, at least for people with some sort of metabolic problem or poor genetics. Your body preferentially shuttles food to fat stores. The rest of your cells are starving, so your appetite is increased and you also have very little energy. This can sometimes be fixed by reducing insulin levels. But just eating less won't work for a person in this situation. They will simply become more lethargic.

There is also a peptide that has something to do with this whole process. It has been approved recently to treat diabetes, but it works for weight loss too. We don't even understand most of what this peptide does. So it's really silly to pretend like we have absolute certainty.

It's also never been established that weight gain and overeating have a cause/effect relationship. Only an association has been proven.

One way to think of it is that in some people their fat stores are like a greedy mob boss. They skim off the top. If you're body wants to stay in business it has to bring in more money, or it will find itself with only enough to pay the rent and no spending cash.

I guarantee that if you were to eat 500 calories over maintenance every day for a week on fat/protein, you would gain a significant amount of fat.
You would if you could. However that would be extremely difficult. It also depends on what you are comparing it too. As I mentioned earlier, simple carbs are digested quickly. So you could break even over the course of the day, but still gain weight because of periods of being in calorie surplus.

If you take anything away from this, it should be that this whole thing is nowhere near as simple as you think it is. It is exponentially more complicated. People are different too.


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Post by Ironman » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:15 am

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Jebus wrote: But I havent seen any evidence of people gaining fat on low-carb diets. Its very well possible but I think you would need quite a bit more fat/protein, cal/cal for fat gain. Meaning that, if you took 1 individual and with a cal surplus of 500 being carbs, and switched it to fat, being 500 cal too, he wouldn't gain as much fat, if at all.
Where would the extra calories go?
Faster matabolism, or more poop? or Muscle ?
If it's protein, more pooping. That's how you know you had way too much protein at one time. That's why it can give you gas too.

But actually in the above scenario, we only think it is 500 calories above maintenance. Most likely it IS maintenance. However because of how fast some of the carbs are metabolized, you end up being in surplus at certain times of the day, even though for the whole day in total, you are at maintenance. You could do the same thing spacing more slowly digested carbs throughout the day. The more fat/protein diet would still be more filling though. Alternatively you could drop another 500 calories off the low carb diet, and lose weight without feeling hungry.

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Re: Belly Fat Increasing.

Post by levis lover » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:10 am

jackthestrat wrote: Given that you are vegetarian, your most likely dietary suspects are inadequate protein intake and excessive carb intake.

What's your exercise program look like?
I am a noob who doesn't know much about the gym exercises. I live in a small town, where the gym owner is a kind of Trainer. But he is not always around. He has told me to go for the machines( rowing machines where we work on lats etc ) for 10-15 days so that my body could get used to it.
Stephen Johnson wrote: The effects of refined carbs is one reason why levis lover shouldn't be consuming so much wheat, even if he is engaged in an exercise program. If the fiber and bran has been removed from the wheat, he might as well be eating candy.
But Wheat is kind of staple food in our region and people have wheat minimum two times a day. We remove the outer layer of wheat and then convert it into flour by grinding the wheat. You think it's refined wheat that we eat ?

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Post by stuward » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:48 am

I assume you're in a country like India since you drink buffalo milk, home ground wheat and are a vegetarian.

It's likely the wheat you're eating is fine. Removing the bran is not as big a deal as the germ. The germ is removed in refined grains since that increases shelf life but it removes all the health benefits of wheat. Adding back bran for the sake of the fibre is overrated. Even though the germ is probably intact, wheat is still not as nutritious as vegetables. Add in what you can and reduce the wheat is possible.

Can you eat eggs and fish?

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Post by levis lover » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:00 am

stuward wrote:I assume you're in a country like India since you drink buffalo milk, home ground wheat and are a vegetarian.

It's likely the wheat you're eating is fine. Removing the bran is not as big a deal as the germ. The germ is removed in refined grains since that increases shelf life but it removes all the health benefits of wheat. Adding back bran for the sake of the fibre is overrated. Even though the germ is probably intact, wheat is still not as nutritious as vegetables. Add in what you can and reduce the wheat is possible.

Can you eat eggs and fish?
Yes i am from India.
We do eat cereals and vegetable with wheat ( in the form of roti ).
I can eat eggs, Chicken,Mutton and fish. I am on vegetarian diet not a vegetarian.


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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:08 am

levis lover wrote:I am a noob who doesn't know much about the gym exercises. I live in a small town, where the gym owner is a kind of Trainer. But he is not always around. He has told me to go for the machines( rowing machines where we work on lats etc ) for 10-15 days so that my body could get used to it.
It might be a good idea for you to become familiar with the equipment that you have available, so you have an idea of what you're doing when you work out.

Don't you have freeweights in your gym? If you do, you can use the information on this site to learn and develop your own workout.

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Post by NightFaLL » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:14 am

Jebus wrote:
NightFaLL wrote: I guarantee that if you were to eat 500 calories over maintenance every day for a week on fat/protein, you would gain a significant amount of fat.
I agree on most of what you say except this. Now, I'm skeptical for the opposite to be true as well. But I havent seen any evidence of people gaining fat on low-carb diets. Its very well possible but I think you would need quite a bit more fat/protein, cal/cal for fat gain. Meaning that, if you took 1 individual and with a cal surplus of 500 being carbs, and switched it to fat, being 500 cal too, he wouldn't gain as much fat, if at all.

There is no study to support what I said, as far as I know but same goes for you, as far as I know.
He actually would gain more fat if he was 500 calories over maintenance on a low-carb vs a low-fat diet.

It's the point that low-carb diets are difficult to overeat calories on that causes weight loss - I'm not saying it isn't a good solution, I just think people don't realize that it's causing calorie restriction and that's why their weight/fat is diminishing.

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Post by NightFaLL » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:19 am

Ironman wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote: With the epidemic of obesity in the US over the last 20 or so years - which curiously coincides with a push towards low fat (ie high carb) foods from fatty foods - the pathways you mentioned, sadly, don't appear to be inefficient enough.
That's where the misconception happens - people aren't gaining weight because of carbs, they're gaining weight because of excess calories.

When you intake carbohydrates and fat, it causes fat oxidation to essentially stop - this means that if you're eating at maintenance the fat calories temporarily are stored as fat, once the carb calories stop being used - the fat that was stored is then released for energy.

Hence, energy balance.

When you intake carbohydrates and fat, and you're above caloric maintenance for the day - the fat is stored and never used, due to the fact you have an abundance of calories from carbohydrates.

So, essentially - it is actually the fat and carbs in a combination with a caloric surplus that is making american fat.

The main reason it has come along with the 'low fat' craze is because people don't pay attention to calories when things say low fat - the just eat as much as they want.
For one thing, it is not exactly the same in all people.

It is both calories and carbs that lead to weight gain. Or at least they are associated with weight gain.

More carbs means more insulin, which will shuttle more calories into the fat stores.

When you eat carbs it is turned into glucose and fatty acids. Any extra glucose is converted into triglycerides and stored as fat. What you stated is only true WHEN YOU ARE NOT IN A CALORIE SURPLUS. I don't know how much more clear that can be. Carbs are a very efficient energy source. You use them or they get stored as fat. Period.

Because of how quickly some carbs are digested, you have very little time to use the energy. So while you might not be in calorie surplus over the day in total, you ARE in calorie surplus for periods of time after a meal.

Try eating 2000 calories of veggies, then try eating 2000 calories of donuts. You will notice a difference.

Finally for some people the cause is actually the weight gain and the effect is overeating. Here is how it works, at least for people with some sort of metabolic problem or poor genetics. Your body preferentially shuttles food to fat stores. The rest of your cells are starving, so your appetite is increased and you also have very little energy. This can sometimes be fixed by reducing insulin levels. But just eating less won't work for a person in this situation. They will simply become more lethargic.

There is also a peptide that has something to do with this whole process. It has been approved recently to treat diabetes, but it works for weight loss too. We don't even understand most of what this peptide does. So it's really silly to pretend like we have absolute certainty.

It's also never been established that weight gain and overeating have a cause/effect relationship. Only an association has been proven.

One way to think of it is that in some people their fat stores are like a greedy mob boss. They skim off the top. If you're body wants to stay in business it has to bring in more money, or it will find itself with only enough to pay the rent and no spending cash.

I guarantee that if you were to eat 500 calories over maintenance every day for a week on fat/protein, you would gain a significant amount of fat.
You would if you could. However that would be extremely difficult. It also depends on what you are comparing it too. As I mentioned earlier, simple carbs are digested quickly. So you could break even over the course of the day, but still gain weight because of periods of being in calorie surplus.

If you take anything away from this, it should be that this whole thing is nowhere near as simple as you think it is. It is exponentially more complicated. People are different too.
If there's anything you should take away from this it's that you've been severely mislead on how the human body functions. I posted some links, I think you should read them.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:22 am

levis lover wrote:We do eat cereals and vegetable with wheat ( in the form of roti ).

I can eat eggs, Chicken,Mutton and fish. I am on vegetarian diet not a vegetarian.
If your goal is to become more muscular, it will be more difficult to do it just eating wheat and drinking milk while omitting non-milk animal protein from your diet.

I heard that the prices of vegetables - particularly onions - have risen sharply in recent months in India. Does that effect your ability to buy them? Stu is right about the need to add nutrient-rich vegetables to your diet.

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Post by levis lover » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:39 am

Stephen Johnson wrote:
If your goal is to become more muscular, it will be more difficult to do it just eating wheat and drinking milk while omitting non-milk animal protein from your diet.
Yes my goal is to become more muscular.
What other foods should i add to my diet in order to achieve that goal ?
Stephen Johnson wrote:
I heard that the prices of vegetables - particularly onions - have risen sharply in recent months in India. Does that effect your ability to buy them? Stu is right about the need to add nutrient-rich vegetables to your diet.
No it does no effect my ability to buy them.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:49 am

levis lover wrote:Yes my goal is to become more muscular.
What other foods should i add to my diet in order to achieve that goal ?
The ones that you listed -chicken, mutton, fish and eggs.

But just eating them won't make you big unless you do exercises that challenge you physically. That's why it's important for you to get a handle on what you are doing in the gym. You still haven't listed your typical workout

levis lover wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote:I heard that the prices of vegetables - particularly onions - have risen sharply in recent months in India. Does that effect your ability to buy them? Stu is right about the need to add nutrient-rich vegetables to your diet.
No it does no effect my ability to buy them.
Good. Eating fruits and vegetables will improve your health.

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Post by levis lover » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:04 pm

Stephen Johnson wrote:You still haven't listed your typical workout
How to do that ?
What information goes into typical workout ?
I have been doing seated low row, pull/down a bar( Which works on the lats and back ) some triceps exercises.. for a week..
20-30 reps push ups everyday.. been doing for a week.

Also when i drink a lot of milk in a day, i have to go to loo a lot of times. Why's that. I am worried i might be lactose-intolerant.
Last edited by levis lover on Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:10 pm

@levis lover:

Do you do any exercises for your legs?

Do you have access to barbells/dumbbells?
levis lover wrote:Also when i drink a lot of milk in a day, a have to go to loo a lot of times. Why's that. I am worried i might be lactose-intolerant.
If you're passing a lot of smelly gas, you're probably lactose intolerant. Many people who can handle a cup or two of milk a day get overwhelmed when they start chugging it by the quart (liter). Add wheat gluten to the mix and the situation can get downright putrid.

All the more reason for you to find protein alternatives. What good is it to have a Greek god bod if you're a social outcast?

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Post by levis lover » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:22 pm

Stephen Johnson wrote:@levis lover:

Do you do any exercises for your legs?
No. Are they important ?
I didn't do them because i thought let's get some strength in upper body first. :roll:
Stephen Johnson wrote: Do you have access to barbells/dumbbells?
Yes
Stephen Johnson wrote: If you're passing a lot of smelly gas, you're probably lactose intolerant. Many people who can handle a cup or two of milk a day get overwhelmed when they start chugging it by the quart (liter). Add wheat gluten to the mix and the situation can get downright putrid.

All the more reason for you to find protein alternatives. What good is it to have a Greek god bod if you're a social outcast?
:roll:

I pass gas but it is not smelly AFAIK.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:35 pm

levis lover wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote:@levis lover:

Do you do any exercises for your legs?
No. Are they important ?
Yes - and that's an understatement.
levis lover wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote: Do you have access to barbells/dumbbells?
Yes
You should use them in preference to the machines.


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