getting my lilttle brother into bodybuilding

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getting my lilttle brother into bodybuilding

Post by Immortal » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:16 pm

I just got a job with a team of guys selling sports nutrition stuff on the internet and we are all pretty much experienced in some form of athletic training or lifting. 1 of the guys on the team offered to train my little brother (17 years old, 240 pounds, 5'11) to be a bodybuilder. He said hes going to train my brother for 2 years without a cutting diet until after the 2 years are over so that way my brother can gain as much muscle as possible. I talked to my brother about it and hes definitely interested. The only problem there is now is The guy thats training my brother isnt doing his main off season training until next month since he had to go to OHIO for business. He told me to get my brother into as much shape as possible and that he would pick up from where I left off. He said do the best I can in terms of his diet as well and that he would establish my brother's diet as soon as he gets a chance to work with my brother.

so here are my problems

1) how do I train someone to help get them into shape for body building
2) my brother is stubborn and loves hot pockets and a lot of rice
3) my brother hates too much eggs, ham, and meat and would rather have carb sources

How can I fix up my brothers diet and what types of rep ranges, set ranges, and workouts do I need to tell him to do in order for him to get into as much shape as possible before 1 month is over.

Some quick notes
- my brother is on the opposite side in terms of body. Im on the lean and cut side while my brother is on the bulky and big side.
- my brother does little to no cardio in the gym
- my brother has many supplements such as creatine, force factor, and other things ( I wouldnt know the extent because I dont use them and am not familiar with them)
- My brothers favorite lift is the bench press and curls. He does squats and other complex workouts but he doesnt consider them as important.

I need some major help here!


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Post by stuward » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:13 pm

I don't agree with someone that large at that age trying to get any larger. It will be hard to lose the fat after.

Encourage him to eat nutrient dense food, from whatever source he wants. That virtually eliminates grains and junk food. Encourage an increase in protein since that builds muscles as that will appeal to him. It will also help him lose fat but he doesn't need to know that.

For training, try getting him into sprints, several short work sessions a few times/week. Don't worry about "cardio". He is going to have to work his back and legs even if he doesn't continuing on a bodybuilding path. I see this as your main effort. He will give you the most resistance here but you can easily find pictures of Tom Platz and Franco Columbu to motivate him. Since you have a month to prepare him, I'd focus on short several sets (3-5 reps) with moderate loads and attention to form. That will put him in a good position for whatever else he does next.

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Post by robertscott » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:33 pm

at 5 foot 11 and 240 pounds it sounds like fat loss should be a priority to me

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Post by Ironman » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:58 pm

There is no need to choose. A beginner can do both at the same time. Follow a basic weight loss diet and train hard. That should do the trick.

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Re: getting my lilttle brother into bodybuilding

Post by nygmen » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:47 pm

Immortal wrote: 1) how do I train someone to help get them into shape for body building
The same way you train anyone that is brand new.

use linear progression, hit every muscle directly. None of this internet guru BS that you don't need this and that lift. You need it if you want to look good. So curls and lateral raises, not just squats and milk. And god dang it to tricep work too.

To look like you lift weights in a shirt you need to do the lifts everyone tells you not to these days.

2) my brother is stubborn and loves hot pockets and a lot of rice
irrelevant at his stage of development.
3) my brother hates too much eggs, ham, and meat and would rather have carb sources
Then he will make zero progress after the newb gains are done.

Unless he is a genetic freak, he will need 300+ grams of protein a day after the newb gains are over.
How can I fix up my brothers diet and what types of rep ranges, set ranges, and workouts do I need to tell him to do in order for him to get into as much shape as possible before 1 month is over.
Stick in the 6-8 rep range and hammer linear progression. Once his linear progression stalls, up the volume a tad.

But he should be working with the other dude well before this point.

- my brother does little to no cardio in the gym
Doesn't matter. He doesn't need it. Particularly if he is gaining.

When he goes into a cut he will likely need it, but not now.
- my brother has many supplements such as creatine, force factor, and other things ( I wouldnt know the extent because I dont use them and am not familiar with them)
Won't make or break his gains. $h1t if the placebo effect helps him push harder, then it isn't even wasting his money.

Let him do what he wants.

I recommend caffeine in massive doses.

- My brothers favorite lift is the bench press and curls. He does squats and other complex workouts but he doesnt consider them as important.
he'll figure it out when his shoulders are FUBAR...


I need some major help here!
I really don't feel like you are ready to be training anyone based on reading your posts. Not a put down, but you are pretty new yourself, and think a cookie cutter program is best for your bro right now.

Just don't pick starting strength if you want to look like a bodybuilder. SS may make you strong, but your side and rear delts will lag and your arms will be twigs. And well, they are very important parts of the "look like you lift weights in a Tee shirt larger than medium" effect.


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Re: getting my lilttle brother into bodybuilding

Post by pdellorto » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:08 pm

nygmen wrote:Just don't pick starting strength if you want to look like a bodybuilder. SS may make you strong, but your side and rear delts will lag and your arms will be twigs. And well, they are very important parts of the "look like you lift weights in a Tee shirt larger than medium" effect.
Can't you just address this by adding in, say, 3 x 10-12 curls and 3-4 sets of 15-20 reps of direct rear delt work? Done every other workout (on an AB setup) that would be a lot of direct arm and rear delt work.

Personally I just threw in band pull-aparts in every warmup and my rear delts stopped being weak points.

But I don't know . . . I'm of the opinion the best way to train a newbie to be a bodybuilder is to get him big and strong as soon as possible and then worry about stuff like balance, symmetry, and so on.

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Re: getting my lilttle brother into bodybuilding

Post by nygmen » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:47 pm

pdellorto wrote:
nygmen wrote:Just don't pick starting strength if you want to look like a bodybuilder. SS may make you strong, but your side and rear delts will lag and your arms will be twigs. And well, they are very important parts of the "look like you lift weights in a Tee shirt larger than medium" effect.
Can't you just address this by adding in, say, 3 x 10-12 curls and 3-4 sets of 15-20 reps of direct rear delt work? Done every other workout (on an AB setup) that would be a lot of direct arm and rear delt work.

Personally I just threw in band pull-aparts in every warmup and my rear delts stopped being weak points.

But I don't know . . . I'm of the opinion the best way to train a newbie to be a bodybuilder is to get him big and strong as soon as possible and then worry about stuff like balance, symmetry, and so on.
You really could add stuff in and make a wonderful program out of SS. Certainly, but then it isn't SS and your just doing your own thing anyway, lol... And makes Rip mad no? ;)

You need to get strong as possible on all the lifts as soon as possible IMO, That means your lateral raises shoudl be moving up along with your squat.

No one should be neglecting the big compounds for this stuff, but if you want to look like a BB'er train like it from step one.

Playing catch up later stinks, trust me. Particularly when your at the stage where you need to eat 6 million pounds to gain, and you're strong enough where the next set is going to wipe you out and you know you have so so so so much volume left, lol...

I'm rambling, sorry.

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Post by robertscott » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:30 am

Ironman wrote:There is no need to choose. A beginner can do both at the same time. Follow a basic weight loss diet and train hard. That should do the trick.
that's basically what I meant, I just wouldn't want him doing GOMAD or something like that

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Re: getting my lilttle brother into bodybuilding

Post by robertscott » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:32 am

nygmen wrote:
pdellorto wrote:
nygmen wrote:Just don't pick starting strength if you want to look like a bodybuilder. SS may make you strong, but your side and rear delts will lag and your arms will be twigs. And well, they are very important parts of the "look like you lift weights in a Tee shirt larger than medium" effect.
Can't you just address this by adding in, say, 3 x 10-12 curls and 3-4 sets of 15-20 reps of direct rear delt work? Done every other workout (on an AB setup) that would be a lot of direct arm and rear delt work.

Personally I just threw in band pull-aparts in every warmup and my rear delts stopped being weak points.

But I don't know . . . I'm of the opinion the best way to train a newbie to be a bodybuilder is to get him big and strong as soon as possible and then worry about stuff like balance, symmetry, and so on.
You really could add stuff in and make a wonderful program out of SS. Certainly, but then it isn't SS and your just doing your own thing anyway, lol... And makes Rip mad no? ;)

You need to get strong as possible on all the lifts as soon as possible IMO, That means your lateral raises shoudl be moving up along with your squat.

No one should be neglecting the big compounds for this stuff, but if you want to look like a BB'er train like it from step one.

Playing catch up later stinks, trust me. Particularly when your at the stage where you need to eat 6 million pounds to gain, and you're strong enough where the next set is going to wipe you out and you know you have so so so so much volume left, lol...

I'm rambling, sorry.
I'm with nygmen on this, SS is a good program and I know loads of folk have used it to get bigger and stronger, but I think for aesthetic purposes it leaves too many gaps

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Post by stuward » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:38 am

It's only 1 month. How many gaps can he develop in one month? he can do cleans if you're concerned about his read dealts. Like peter said, you can do a lot in the warmup. Band pull aparts in the warmup are easy to program. Add pushups, chinups, some hip mobility, etc. This is stuff he should be doing anyway.

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Post by robertscott » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:40 am

hmm I didn't realise it would just be one month, I'll confess to only having skim read the post.

In that case, meh, anything's better than nothing

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Re: getting my lilttle brother into bodybuilding

Post by pdellorto » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:41 am

nygmen wrote: You really could add stuff in and make a wonderful program out of SS. Certainly, but then it isn't SS and your just doing your own thing anyway, lol... And makes Rip mad no? ;)
So what? :wink:

I mean, you won't be able to legitimately complain about the program "not working" if you change the program, but you want some additional stuff. So be it; I'd put it in there.


nygmen wrote: You need to get strong as possible on all the lifts as soon as possible IMO, That means your lateral raises shoudl be moving up along with your squat.
I would have thought this wasn't such a big concern. Adding a little extra isolation, or choosing a program that includes more of it - say Westside for Skinny Bastards - could presumably help but I wouldn't stay up nights worry that my lateral raises needed to progress as my squat did.

nygmen wrote: No one should be neglecting the big compounds for this stuff, but if you want to look like a BB'er train like it from step one.

Playing catch up later stinks, trust me. Particularly when your at the stage where you need to eat 6 million pounds to gain, and you're strong enough where the next set is going to wipe you out and you know you have so so so so much volume left, lol...

I'm rambling, sorry.



It's okay, it's interesting and might help the OP or other readers IMO.

I'm fascinated by the concern about catching up, though. Why would it be harder, and require more and heavier weights, to build up a bit later? If you put on a bunch of mass and strength doing SS or Stronglifts 5 x 5 or WS4SB, say, and you go for more isolation later to build symmetry and size, why is that so much harder? Why does the ability to handle heavier weights make it a requirement to do so?

I guess I'm wondering why you need to hammer the isolation exercises early in order to avoid "needing" to do them heavier later. It also seems a bit at odds with the idea that you need them to go up ASAP. I keep thinking of that Ronnie Coleman quote about lifting "heavy-ass weights" but also the bodybuilder idea of learning to get more out of a lighter weight, not doing the heaviest weight possible.

Again, this is out of my experience range. But I know adding in extra arm work and rear delt work and so on gave me an upper back I didn't have before and arms that don't look like my old arms . . . and that was in my mid-to-late thirties after almost 10 years of solid training. That training almost always included isolation lifts. Adding more size and bringing up lagging areas (for strength purposes, but the aesthetics is a nice bonus) wasn't as hard as getting stronger.

That's my approach, anyway - get as strong as possible quickly, and work on the details later. Include some detail work along the way, just because it helps (band pull-aparts for the rear delts make great shoulder prehab, for example, as well as extra volume), but worry about it later. Worrying about all of it at once . . . . I don't know, does that really work? That seems to be the standard gym-guy approach and the common wisdom is that it's not working for that many of them. So much so that if you start to squat heavy people think it must be steroids. :grin:

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Post by nygmen » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:26 am

It is more an issue of progression v. genetic affinity.

You as an individual are going to have muscles that grow better just like people are going to have lifts that they are better at.

My traps grow from looking at weights. My legs explode from widows and 400 grams of protein. So I don't have to play catchup at all with them, couple months of focus and they will take off.

My side delts, bis on the other hand, not so much.

Now had I started hitting them just as hard with as much focus as squats and deads I would have figured out how to make them grow a long time ago. So they would have never been a lagging part.

Aside from the fact, if you are lifting to look good naked, or look like a body builder, neglecting to of the most important parts, delts and bi, to worry about them later is counter productive. That is like saying you want to be the be the drummer in your state, and only playing piano because you'll add in the drumming isolation later. This is the only discipline I've ever seen where you are told don't focus on important stuff from the beginning.

$h1t, even in accounting 101 you learn the basic principles and then build on them. Big delts are part of the foundation. And unless you are a genetic gifted individual, your side delts are going to take a ton of work.

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Post by KPj » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:12 am

This is quite a good discussion. Although there isn't actually much disagreement at all but it's something that interests me more and more - How a "BB type" should train as a beginner.

I think it's obvious that everyone will have certain muscles that don't need much direct work to make them grow. However, I also think it's wishfull thinking to assume you can hit everything as much as it needs to be hit from the beginning. One thing to consider is - have you ever spoke to a BB or BB "type" who didn't have lagging muscles or felt everything was in proportion?? I really don't think I have. Reading BB training logs, they're always trying to bring up something. It's all part of the game. However you shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water and take this point to mean that no isolation should be done from the start 'cause you'll have lagging body parts later on anyway.... I think the debate is where you draw the line...

I think there's always an element of bias, too, depending on what muscles are lagging on you personally. Most people do seem to struggle bringing up biceps but not everyone. You also have perception - what you perceive to be big enough or in proportion enough. This could be debated all day long with no conclusion, really...

My older brother always tells me he thinks he could improve anyones biceps in 8 weeks. He's deffinitly mistaken but this is just because his biceps have grown regardless of what he's done to them so to him, it's "easy". Ask him about calfs and he's stuck, though, and you just need to take one look at his calfs to figure out why.

The main point that lingers in my mind is how do you know which muscles will grow without much real trouble and which muscles will be really stubborn. For me personally - if I was a "BB type", for starts, I would need to gain about 50lbs of B/W. However if you were to just go by "proportion" and forget b/w for a minute, then there's no way I would know that I don't need much calf work unless I had never done calf work and they grew anyway. My upper arms deffinitly need more work, I know this because i don't really do any arm work and they've not grown like the rest of my body. I know my chest doesn't need a sh*t load of specialised work because it's probably aesthetically one my best muscle groups yet I don't pile loads of volume onto it.

Rewind to when I started and actually trained with those goals, I could of halfed my "chest day" and added more tri's. I could of got rid of the calf work and added more quad work. Dumped the forearm work for more Bicep work. Reduced the upper trap work and got more lateral delt work. But, I would never of known all this had I not taken the approach I take now.

Throw in the fact that it takes several years to build a decent BB physique then, I also can't help but think, "what's the hurry?". Since SS was mentioned, it's worth noting that it's not a program you're supposed to do for years anyway. I do sway towards the opinion of - Do the compounds, forget isolation, get your full body stronger, eat big and just "generally" grow. You're not going to get cannonball delts in 6 months of any beginner program anyway.

As to where beginners with BB goals should draw the line, though, i still don't know, but these are my thoughts (feel free to tear them apart as i'm only here to learn!).

KPj

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Re: getting my lilttle brother into bodybuilding

Post by jackthestrat » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:23 pm

If it were me, I'd hit him hard with SS for the month that you have him and not even worry about the diet.


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