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Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:09 am
by stuward
Joe, as usual Kenny is right on, but I think you need to consider the "so what".

If you're trying to gain muscle, the effectiveness is going to be based on your insulin sensitivity. That's why you can't just load up on junk food while bulking and expect to be successful. You need good whole foods that don't play havok with your insulin.

If you're trying to lose fat and spare your muscle, the defining hormone in Leptin. As fat store decline, the amount of leptin declines and you start losing more muscle. That's why body builders have a harder time as they reach the ripped stage, and why guys like John Berardi get paid the big bucks. For the rest of us, leptin starts becoming an issue once we're in the sub 15% range. At that point you need appropriate refeeds (carbs) in order to keep your leptin levels high.

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:14 pm
by RobertB
Great concise info Kenny thanks :cheers:

Re:

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:24 pm
by JoeB
stuward wrote:Joe, as usual Kenny is right on, but I think you need to consider the "so what".

If you're trying to gain muscle, the effectiveness is going to be based on your insulin sensitivity. That's why you can't just load up on junk food while bulking and expect to be successful. You need good whole foods that don't play havok with your insulin.

If you're trying to lose fat and spare your muscle, the defining hormone in Leptin. As fat store decline, the amount of leptin declines and you start losing more muscle. That's why body builders have a harder time as they reach the ripped stage, and why guys like John Berardi get paid the big bucks. For the rest of us, leptin starts becoming an issue once we're in the sub 15% range. At that point you need appropriate refeeds (carbs) in order to keep your leptin levels high.

I eat pretty clean. Cutting diet for the past year has been skim milk, cheese, oats, chicken, tuna, natural pb, cottage cheese, whey protein and occasionally I will eat a fatty steak or ground turkey. When I am bulking I eat the same things but I will eat more steak, ground beef, ground turkey and I will let myself pig out at an all you can eat.I have started to use refeed days of increasing protein and carbs-from oats-- on Fridays. So, for six days a week, I will eat around 1900 calories and then go up to maintenance level which is 2600 calories on my refeed day.Last weekend, I actually had three refeeds days since I was extremely hungry on Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It should be interesting to see what the scales says tomorrow when I weigh in.

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:24 pm
by Ironman
Don't worry about fat.

If you eat plenty of protein, I don't think you will lose much muscle at all. I agree with Kenny on the 8 out of 10 being fat, but I think the other two pounds will mostly be water if you do it right. You do of course lose plenty of strength, that's unavoidable.

I always have better success starting with really low carbs first. like 15 to 20 grams a day. Then I lower calories slowly as I go. By the end of your cycle you go pretty low. I have found you carry less water that is lost at the beginning. Then over time you lose water from your muscles. They get kind of flat and look smaller. When you are done, a lot of that water weight goes back on and your muscles fill up again. Glycogen explains some of this, but not all. You can usually expect to gain back a pound or two of fat when you go back to maintenance.

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 am
by robertscott
Ironman wrote: I always have better success starting with really low carbs first. like 15 to 20 grams a day.
that's pretty impressive, I can't imagine what that must be like to try and stick to

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:15 pm
by Ironman
robertscott wrote:
Ironman wrote: I always have better success starting with really low carbs first. like 15 to 20 grams a day.
that's pretty impressive, I can't imagine what that must be like to try and stick to
It's a little rough, but it gets bad when you maintain at 3000+ calories and you get down to 1300 to 1400 calories a day by the end. It works though.

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:52 am
by JoeB
Ironman wrote:
I always have better success starting with really low carbs first. like 15 to 20 grams a day.
What does your diet look like when you go this low on carbs? Even, at 1900 calories, I am getting 175g of carbs so I cannot imagine how hard it must be to go that low.

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:05 am
by stuward
It's really not hard. Start your day with meat and eggs. After that, base your diet on fibrous vegetables, meat and fat. After a while you don't want sugar and grains. If you want carbs, add potatoes, sweet potatoes or rice to a meal. It doesn't have to be an automatic thing. You don't need starch or sugar.

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:56 pm
by Ironman
JoeB wrote:
Ironman wrote:
I always have better success starting with really low carbs first. like 15 to 20 grams a day.
What does your diet look like when you go this low on carbs? Even, at 1900 calories, I am getting 175g of carbs so I cannot imagine how hard it must be to go that low.

It's mostly meat. eggs, veggies and Atkins products. I'll eat a little cheese. I might have half a serving of almonds.

Eggs are great for this. 3 jumbo eggs plus 2 slices of cheese is 390 calories and 2 carbs. Do that by three meals and you are still under 1200 calories and only 6 carbs. It keeps you feeling full too. Although that's only in theory as I wouldn't feel like eating eggs more than once a day. (double the carbs if you get the cheap cheese slices)

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:03 am
by JoeB
Is bulking and cutting really necessary? What happens when some ones eats at maintenance levels and lifts weights?

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:25 am
by stuward
JoeB wrote:Is bulking and cutting really necessary? What happens when some ones eats at maintenance levels and lifts weights?
It all depends on your genetics, but assuming that you're not naturally lean and mean, you need some type of cycle. It doesn't have to be a long cycle. Just grouping your carbs into one meal a day will do it. Otherwise, you're never in a fat burning cycle or in a anabolic cycle and your body fat percentage will likely remain where it is.

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:13 pm
by robertscott
JoeB wrote:Is bulking and cutting really necessary? What happens when some ones eats at maintenance levels and lifts weights?
also remember that competing bodybuilders cut down to like 3% bodyfat, whereas just under 10% is enough for average joes. What level of bodyfat you are comfortable at is a very individual thing.

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:53 pm
by JoeB
Okay, so I have been at 183lbs for a few weeks now with a 32", 33", 34" waist depending on the time of day I measure. I picked up a bottle of oxyelite pro and I was wondering if anyone has had any success with this supplement?

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:25 pm
by JoeB
My waist measurement is less when I stand compared to when I measure sitting. Is this due to me subconsciously sucking in my gut while standing?

Re: Question about cutting.

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:01 pm
by Oscar_Actuary
JoeB wrote:My waist measurement is less when I stand compared to when I measure sitting. Is this due to me subconsciously sucking in my gut while standing?
and/or
gravity + compression.
my guess.