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5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:28 am
by matthewmccaw
I am currently working out 5 days a week-
monday chest+biceps - bench press, dumbbell flys, wide grip dips, cable crossovers. hammer curls, machine curls, dumbell incline curls, cable curls
tuesday back+triceps - pull ups, cable rows, one arm dumbell rows, lat pulldown. close grip bench press, rope pushdown, lying dumbbell overhead tricep extension, cable overhead tricep extension.
wed off
thurs shoulders/traps+abs - shoulder press, shrugs, dumbell bent over lateral raise, dumbell lateral raise, dumbell front raise. abs circuit
friday legs+abs - standing calf raise, leg press calf raise, smith machine front squat, smith machine full squat, dumbbell forward lunge, dumbbell reverse lunge, one leg press. abs circuit
saturday chest+biceps - bench press, dumbell incline press, decline bench press, cable crossovers. hammer curls, preacher curls, concentration curls, cable ez bar curls.
sunday off
I am trying to bulk up. I am hitting chest and biceps twice a week because they need most development and strength gain, Is this a good idea? Also are these exercises good and in good order? Are they good for bulking i mainly do 4 x 8 reps. I have 5 good meals a day of mainly chicken and brown rice/pasta/potatoes/vegetables cant fit anymore into my day am not seeing much gains any advice from people who know what they are talking about would be much appreciated :)

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:18 am
by hoosegow
First off, anything is good and will help you out. The suggestions I would make would be to look at your diet. You probably aren't eating enough. Second, I think you are doing WAY too much work (I may back off of this depending on you set/rep scheme). Third, most people do back/biceps and chest/triceps. This is because they assist each other. Fourth, get off the damn Smith machine and get under a bar. Fifth, I'd drop the second chest day unlless you do something completely different. Sixth, add the deadlift. Seventh, on your leg day, do your squats first.

These are just some thoughts. Tell us your set/reps scheme and we can help you out more.

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:35 am
by Kenny Croxdale
matthew,

Let's brreak it a part and address one thought at a time.

matthewmccaw wrote:I am trying to bulk up. I have 5 good meals a day of mainly chicken and brown rice/pasta/potatoes/vegetables cant fit anymore into my day am not seeing much gains


Bulking Up

Bulking up is all about calories. Eating 5 meals a day is a good idea...but bulking requires calorie dense foods. That means eating high calorie foods.

Chicken, rice, pasta and vegetables won't deliver the calories you need to grow. If you're eating chicken, go with the dark meat it has more calories than the breast.

Mix butter and/or olive oil in to your rice, pasta and vegetables.

Eat nuts, cheeze, and other foods with higher calories.

Also are these exercises good and in good order
No.

Too Many Exercises

Research show that the most effective weight training program are approximately an hour. Mathematically, my estimation would put your Monday workout at more like 1.5 hours plus. Would that be correct?

Intensity is a majory key to building muscle mass.

High intensity training of large muscle groups promotes muscle growth.
http://www.musculardevelopment.com/arti ... eptor.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"You can train hard or long but not both." Vince Gironda

There is an inverse relationship to intensity and time.

1) When intensity goes UP, time goes down.

2) When time goes UP, intensity goes DOWN.

The Bulgarians proved this with short multiple daily training sessions. Training sessions were 40-60 minutes.

Marathon Runners vs Sprinters in Track.

Marathon runners are thin, small individuals. Part of the comes from genetics. The other part comes from long training sessions with little rest that restrict and retard muscle growth.

Your training program is a "marathon".

Sprinters are more musclular individuals. Part of this comes from genetics. The other part performing high intensity sprints that grow muscle mass.

With that thought in mind, your program need to be a "sprint" training program.

Exercise Selection

Training the same muscle group every day doesn't allow it time recovery and grow.

Your program involves training the same muscle groups too often, almost daily. As an example, your train triceps Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday.

All pressing/pusing movements for the most part work the triceps.

Monday-Bench Press, that is tricep work.

Tuesday-close grip bench press, rope pushdown, lying dumbbell overhead tricep extension, cable overhead tricep extension...Another day of tricep work.

Thursday-shoulder press...Another day of tricep work.

Saturday-bench press, dumbell incline press, decline bench press...More tricep work.

How many days of tricep work do you need? Not that many.

Push-Pull Days

A better method is to perform all pushing movement one day and all pulling movement another day. That insures that you do not continueously train the same muscle group every day.

Bulking Exercises

The "money" exercises are compound movements such as squats, leg press, deadlifts, lat pulldowns, bent over rows, bench press, incline press, etc. Exercises that work large muscles groups.

Foo-Foo Exercises

These exercises aren't bulking exercises: flys, cable cross overs, curls, shrugs, dumbbell raises, calf raises,

Compound exercises are more effective at working the muscle groups the foo-foo exercises do.

Example: In performing a lat pulldown, due to the fact that the biceps are the weakest link in the exercise...the biceps get the most work. That means the biceps get plenty of work when performing compound pulling movements, such as lat pulldowns and bent over rows.

I am currently working out 5 days a week
That is too much. Cut it back to 3-4 days a week.

Muscle growth take place during recovery, not during training. You need to allow it time to recovery and grow.

i mainly do 4 x 8 reps
That will work with the right program.

Program Revision Summary

1) Consume more calorie dense foods.

2) Cut your workout back to 3-4 days.

3) Cut the number of exercise you do in your program down.

4) Keep you training sessions to approximately and hour.

Exercise Training Program Example:

Monday-Bench Press, Incline Press, Tricep Pushdown.

Tuesday-Squats, Lunge, Ab Work.

Wednesday-Off

Thursday-Lat Pulldown, Bent Over Row, Curls.

Friday-Deadlift, Leg Curl, Ab Work.

Saturday/Sunday-Off

Kenny Croxdale

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:46 am
by matthewmccaw
hoosegow wrote:First off, anything is good and will help you out. The suggestions I would make would be to look at your diet. You probably aren't eating enough. Second, I think you are doing WAY too much work (I may back off of this depending on you set/rep scheme). Third, most people do back/biceps and chest/triceps. This is because they assist each other. Fourth, get off the damn Smith machine and get under a bar. Fifth, I'd drop the second chest day unlless you do something completely different. Sixth, add the deadlift. Seventh, on your leg day, do your squats first.

These are just some thoughts. Tell us your set/reps scheme and we can help you out more.
I mainly do 4x8 reps on everything except curls and abs. I do eat quite alot im dirty bulking because im quite thin although it all seems to go 2 my stomach (like a pot belly) rather than anywer else. I was thinking of changing to back biceps chest triceps, unfortunately there is no free bench in my gym although il b changing gyms soon. thanks very much 4 the help :)

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:02 am
by matthewmccaw
Kenny Croxdale wrote:matthew,

Let's brreak it a part and address one thought at a time.

matthewmccaw wrote:I am trying to bulk up. I have 5 good meals a day of mainly chicken and brown rice/pasta/potatoes/vegetables cant fit anymore into my day am not seeing much gains


Bulking Up

Bulking up is all about calories. Eating 5 meals a day is a good idea...but bulking requires calorie dense foods. That means eating high calorie foods.

Chicken, rice, pasta and vegetables won't deliver the calories you need to grow. If you're eating chicken, go with the dark meat it has more calories than the breast.

Mix butter and/or olive oil in to your rice, pasta and vegetables.

Eat nuts, cheeze, and other foods with higher calories.

Also are these exercises good and in good order
No.

Too Many Exercises

Research show that the most effective weight training program are approximately an hour. Mathematically, my estimation would put your Monday workout at more like 1.5 hours plus. Would that be correct?

Intensity is a majory key to building muscle mass.

High intensity training of large muscle groups promotes muscle growth.

"You can train hard or long but not both." Vince Gironda

There is an inverse relationship to intensity and time.

1) When intensity goes UP, time goes down.

2) When time goes UP, intensity goes DOWN.

The Bulgarians proved this with short multiple daily training sessions. Training sessions were 40-60 minutes.

Marathon Runners vs Sprinters in Track.

Marathon runners are thin, small individuals. Part of the comes from genetics. The other part comes from long training sessions with little rest that restrict and retard muscle growth.

Your training program is a "marathon".

Sprinters are more musclular individuals. Part of this comes from genetics. The other part performing high intensity sprints that grow muscle mass.

With that thought in mind, your program need to be a "sprint" training program.

Exercise Selection

Training the same muscle group every day doesn't allow it time recovery and grow.

Your program involves training the same muscle groups too often, almost daily. As an example, your train triceps Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday.

All pressing/pusing movements for the most part work the triceps.

Monday-Bench Press, that is tricep work.

Tuesday-close grip bench press, rope pushdown, lying dumbbell overhead tricep extension, cable overhead tricep extension...Another day of tricep work.

Thursday-shoulder press...Another day of tricep work.

Saturday-bench press, dumbell incline press, decline bench press...More tricep work.

How many days of tricep work do you need? Not that many.

Push-Pull Days

A better method is to perform all pushing movement one day and all pulling movement another day. That insures that you do not continueously train the same muscle group every day.

Bulking Exercises

The "money" exercises are compound movements such as squats, leg press, deadlifts, lat pulldowns, bent over rows, bench press, incline press, etc. Exercises that work large muscles groups.

Foo-Foo Exercises

These exercises aren't bulking exercises: flys, cable cross overs, curls, shrugs, dumbbell raises, calf raises,

Compound exercises are more effective at working the muscle groups the foo-foo exercises do.

Example: In performing a lat pulldown, due to the fact that the biceps are the weakest link in the exercise...the biceps get the most work. That means the biceps get plenty of work when performing compound pulling movements, such as lat pulldowns and bent over rows.

I am currently working out 5 days a week
That is too much. Cut it back to 3-4 days a week.

Muscle growth take place during recovery, not during training. You need to allow it time to recovery and grow.

i mainly do 4 x 8 reps
That will work with the right program.

Program Revision Summary

1) Consume more calorie dense foods.

2) Cut your workout back to 3-4 days.

3) Cut the number of exercise you do in your program down.

4) Keep you training sessions to approximately and hour.

Exercise Training Program Example:

Monday-Bench Press, Incline Press, Tricep Pushdown.

Tuesday-Squats, Lunge, Ab Work.

Wednesday-Off

Thursday-Lat Pulldown, Bent Over Row, Curls.

Friday-Deadlift, Leg Curl, Ab Work.

Saturday/Sunday-Off

Kenny Croxdale




Thanks very much Kenny for taking the time to give this advice, I feel im taking in enough calories as i would eat things like cheese and anything going really as im doing a dirty bulk because im reasonably thin altho all it seems to be doing is giving me a pot belly. Ur right my sessions usually take an hour and a half this is because when i was doing less i wasnt feeling any burn in my muscles during or after so i added another exercise on to each group, I would like to give what your saying a try although I think three exercises per day is to little maybe? I would be in and out in half hour, could you give me a slightly more detailed intense workout ? I really want to get bigger chest and biceps although ther are no barbells in my gym just dumbbells, cables and smith machine. Do u think that going for a swim on a 5th day would be ok? thanks fgor your help its much appreciated :)

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:09 pm
by hoosegow
Listen to Kenny. Feeling the "burn" has nothing to do with how hard you are working. Getting big takes time. Clean up your diet and eat. When you get tired of eating, eat some more.

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:47 pm
by Kenny Croxdale
matthewmccaw wrote:Thanks very much Kenny for taking the time to give this advice, I feel im taking in enough calories as i would eat things like cheese and anything going really as im doing a dirty bulk because im reasonably thin altho all it seems to be doing is giving me a pot belly.
Matt,

Eat More

Weight gain is directly related to caloric intake. The fact that you struggling to gain weight means you are eating enough.

Ur right my sessions usually take an hour and a half this is because when i was doing less i wasnt feeling any burn in my muscles during or after so i added another exercise on to each group
"Feeling The Burn"

Not feeling the burn doesn't mean you are doing enough.

I would like to give what your saying a try although I think three exercises per day is to little maybe?


The "Magic" Number?

Exactly what information lead you to "think three exercise per day is too little"?

What is the "Magic Number of Exercises"?

I would be in and out in half hour,

You will be out in approximatley 40-50 minutes if you perform the program correctly.

Which brings us to to:

"Magic Minutes"

Exactly what is the "Magic Number of Minutes" you need to workout?

could you give me a slightly more detailed intense workout ?


What makes a program MORE intense?

The program that I provided you is intense if you push it. NO program is intense if you don't push it.

Keys To Knowing The Intensity Of Your Program.

1) Puking

2) Not being able to walk or breath after squats, leg press, deadlifts...

3) Not being able to lift a pencil after bench pressing or lat pulldowns.

I really want to get bigger chest and biceps although ther are no barbells in my gym just dumbbells, cables and smith machine.
EAT MORE!

Also...

Read The Article

I provided you with an research article on "Androgen Receptor" http://www.musculardevelopment.com/arti ... eptor.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Androgen Receptors" stated what bodybuilders have noted for decades, "doing heavy squats increased his arm size." That also mean your chest (every muscle group) will grow bigger.

Do u think that going for a swim on a 5th day would be ok?
What is the point of going swimming?

Spending Money

Why spend "caloric money" on swimming that could be used to help you gain weight?

Brawn

Brawn is a book that deals with "Hard Gainers". The essance of the book is that "Less is more' when the intensity is there.

A Used Brawn book is about $10 plus shipping. http://www.amazon.com/Brawn-Stuart-McRo ... 9963616089" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kenny Croxdale

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:09 pm
by matthewmccaw
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
matthewmccaw wrote:Thanks very much Kenny for taking the time to give this advice, I feel im taking in enough calories as i would eat things like cheese and anything going really as im doing a dirty bulk because im reasonably thin altho all it seems to be doing is giving me a pot belly.
Matt,

Eat More

Weight gain is directly related to caloric intake. The fact that you struggling to gain weight means you are eating enough.

Ur right my sessions usually take an hour and a half this is because when i was doing less i wasnt feeling any burn in my muscles during or after so i added another exercise on to each group
"Feeling The Burn"

Not feeling the burn doesn't mean you are doing enough.

I would like to give what your saying a try although I think three exercises per day is to little maybe?


The "Magic" Number?

Exactly what information lead you to "think three exercise per day is too little"?

What is the "Magic Number of Exercises"?

I would be in and out in half hour,

You will be out in approximatley 40-50 minutes if you perform the program correctly.

Which brings us to to:

"Magic Minutes"

Exactly what is the "Magic Number of Minutes" you need to workout?

could you give me a slightly more detailed intense workout ?


What makes a program MORE intense?

The program that I provided you is intense if you push it. NO program is intense if you don't push it.

Keys To Knowing The Intensity Of Your Program.

1) Puking

2) Not being able to walk or breath after squats, leg press, deadlifts...

3) Not being able to lift a pencil after bench pressing or lat pulldowns.

I really want to get bigger chest and biceps although ther are no barbells in my gym just dumbbells, cables and smith machine.
EAT MORE!

Also...

Read The Article

I provided you with an research article on "Androgen Receptor" http:///articles/training/3044-acute-increases-in-testosterone-lead-to-increases-in-androgen-receptor.html

"Androgen Receptors" stated what bodybuilders have noted for decades, "doing heavy squats increased his arm size." That also mean your chest (every muscle group) will grow bigger.

Do u think that going for a swim on a 5th day would be ok?
What is the point of going swimming?

Spending Money

Why spend "caloric money" on swimming that could be used to help you gain weight?

Brawn

Brawn is a book that deals with "Hard Gainers". The essance of the book is that "Less is more' when the intensity is there.

A Used Brawn book is about $10 plus shipping. http:///Brawn-Stuart-McRobert/dp/9963616089

Kenny Croxdale
so should these exercises be 4x8 reps? In regards to the swim I jus like to get out and exercise as many days as i can as it keeps me busy and gives me something to do. Thanks very much 4 ur help kenny

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:12 pm
by matthewmccaw
matthewmccaw wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
matthewmccaw wrote:Thanks very much Kenny for taking the time to give this advice, I feel im taking in enough calories as i would eat things like cheese and anything going really as im doing a dirty bulk because im reasonably thin altho all it seems to be doing is giving me a pot belly.
Matt,

Eat More

Weight gain is directly related to caloric intake. The fact that you struggling to gain weight means you are eating enough.

Ur right my sessions usually take an hour and a half this is because when i was doing less i wasnt feeling any burn in my muscles during or after so i added another exercise on to each group
"Feeling The Burn"

Not feeling the burn doesn't mean you are doing enough.

I would like to give what your saying a try although I think three exercises per day is to little maybe?


The "Magic" Number?

Exactly what information lead you to "think three exercise per day is too little"?

What is the "Magic Number of Exercises"?

I would be in and out in half hour,

You will be out in approximatley 40-50 minutes if you perform the program correctly.

Which brings us to to:

"Magic Minutes"

Exactly what is the "Magic Number of Minutes" you need to workout?

could you give me a slightly more detailed intense workout ?


What makes a program MORE intense?

The program that I provided you is intense if you push it. NO program is intense if you don't push it.

Keys To Knowing The Intensity Of Your Program.

1) Puking

2) Not being able to walk or breath after squats, leg press, deadlifts...

3) Not being able to lift a pencil after bench pressing or lat pulldowns.

I really want to get bigger chest and biceps although ther are no barbells in my gym just dumbbells, cables and smith machine.
EAT MORE!

Also...

Read The Article

I provided you with an research article on "Androgen Receptor" http:///articles/training/3044-acute-increases-in-testosterone-lead-to-increases-in-androgen-receptor.html

"Androgen Receptors" stated what bodybuilders have noted for decades, "doing heavy squats increased his arm size." That also mean your chest (every muscle group) will grow bigger.

Do u think that going for a swim on a 5th day would be ok?
What is the point of going swimming?

Spending Money

Why spend "caloric money" on swimming that could be used to help you gain weight?

Brawn

Brawn is a book that deals with "Hard Gainers". The essance of the book is that "Less is more' when the intensity is there.

A Used Brawn book is about $10 plus shipping. http:///Brawn-Stuart-McRobert/dp/9963616089

Kenny Croxdale
so should these exercises be 4x8 reps? In regards to the swim I jus like to get out and exercise as many days as i can as it keeps me busy and gives me something to do. Thanks very much 4 ur help kenny
And wat sort of rest time between sets, exercises?

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:02 pm
by stuward
matthewmccaw wrote:...

I feel im taking in enough calories as i would eat things like cheese and anything going really as im doing a dirty bulk because im reasonably thin altho all it seems to be doing is giving me a pot belly. ...
You might be getting the wrong type of calories. A pot belly is indicative of too many carbs. You should increase your fat intake and restrict your carbs, especially sugar and wheat. Most of the examples Kenny gave you are fat sources. The other factor in reducing your "pot belly" is liver health. Increase your consumption of egg yolks and liver. Eat at least 4-6 eggs or 4 oz liver/day or some combination. You probably know to keep your protein high, but you're missing the fat for energy part of the equation. Good fat sources are any animal fats, coconut oil, avocados, nuts in moderation and olive oil.

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:17 pm
by DavidMcF
holy god kenny knows everything in the world

I love reading your posts kenny, never stop!

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:11 pm
by Jungledoc
You don't need to quote long posts every time you reply.

Rest as much as you need to. Don't get silly with the stopwatch. 3x8 is fine if it is challenging for you. If you've been dong 3x8 for a long time, then try 5x5 or 3x5 or something different. Or go to alternating heavy days, say 3x3 and light days, like 2x10.

And pay attention to Kenny. He knows. To get as good advice anywhere else will cost you money.

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:10 am
by matthewmccaw
Jungledoc wrote:You don't need to quote long posts every time you reply.

Rest as much as you need to. Don't get silly with the stopwatch. 3x8 is fine if it is challenging for you. If you've been dong 3x8 for a long time, then try 5x5 or 3x5 or something different. Or go to alternating heavy days, say 3x3 and light days, like 2x10.

And pay attention to Kenny. He knows. To get as good advice anywhere else will cost you money.
4x8 it is i would do m8 although im thinking of starting drop sets for a bit of a strength increase 2

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:18 am
by matthewmccaw
stuward wrote:
matthewmccaw wrote:...

I feel im taking in enough calories as i would eat things like cheese and anything going really as im doing a dirty bulk because im reasonably thin altho all it seems to be doing is giving me a pot belly. ...
You might be getting the wrong type of calories. A pot belly is indicative of too many carbs. You should increase your fat intake and restrict your carbs, especially sugar and wheat. Most of the examples Kenny gave you are fat sources. The other factor in reducing your "pot belly" is liver health. Increase your consumption of egg yolks and liver. Eat at least 4-6 eggs or 4 oz liver/day or some combination. You probably know to keep your protein high, but you're missing the fat for energy part of the equation. Good fat sources are any animal fats, coconut oil, avocados, nuts in moderation and olive oil.
I do take on a lod of carbs by way of pasta potatoes brown rice an bread im going to try an cut them a bit, im not a big fan of eggs which is a bit of a problem id maybe hav a 3 egg omlette twice a week anything more sickens me, also i couldnt eat liver, im maybe thinking of switching to the milk and egg protein mixture tho or maybe jus having one shake of that and one shake of whey protein a day? I find it hard to develop a diet to my taste without quite a lot of carbs. Thanks for your help :)

Re: 5 day split

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:22 am
by Jungledoc
matthewmccaw wrote:4x8 it is i would do m8 although im thinking of starting drop sets for a bit of a strength increase 2
You need a good basic program that you use consistently for a few months or years before you think of stuff like drop sets.

If strength is a goal, drop the volume. I thought you were intent on hypertrophy.