Not training to failure

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Paperclip
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Not training to failure

Post by Paperclip » Tue May 31, 2011 12:50 am

I've read about this sometime in the past but have forgotten what it's all about. Would anybody be kind enough to point me in the right direction?

Thanks!


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Jungledoc
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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Jungledoc » Tue May 31, 2011 6:08 pm

What, exactly, is your question?

Paperclip
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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Paperclip » Tue May 31, 2011 11:24 pm

I think I once read that one author recommends to not hit failure in a set. This goes against the grain where people usually squeeze every last bit of energy that they have when performing an exercise in a set. I forgot what's the reasoning behind the author's advice and would like to refresh my memory.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by pdellorto » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:36 am

It's not just Jason Ferrugia, but that's who you are probably thinking of:

http://jasonferruggia.com/training-to-failure-part-1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by stuward » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:42 am

Chad Waterbury recommends stopping the set once the bar speed starts to slow. Here's a recent article by him. http://www.facebook.com/notes/dragon-do ... 0436248626" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Jebus » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:02 am

John Broz advises people to never do slow grinding reps, always push/pull as fast as you can.

Kenny Croxdale
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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:40 am

pdellorto wrote:It's not just Jason Ferrugia, but that's who you are probably thinking of:

http://jasonferruggia.com/training-to-failure-part-1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Peter,

Good aritcle.

Frying You Central Nervous System

Ferruggia's right, Going to failure on a regular basis frys you central nervous system.

Another problem is it mentally and emotionally burns you out. Brutal training sessions can mentally and emotionally drain you for up to 10 days.

I diagree wth Ferruggia.

There is a time and place for trainng to failure or having your training partner assist you with a lift. .

Training Partner Assist

Having a training partner assist you in getting the weight up is no different than the use of bands and/or chains.

Bands and chains, so to speak, are your training partner. The provide more resistance in one area and then "assist" you in getting it up in your weaker areas.

Guidlines For Going To Failure.

1) INfrequently. Once every 3-8 weeks is ok.

2) Stop The Workout. Once you've maxed out or gone to failure. Stop your workout.

Your central nervous system has been taxed enough. Continueing to workout after going hitting your max or going to failure only makes things worse.

Charlie Francis Rule

Francis was one of the great sprint coaches. Francis had any sprinter who hit a personal record/max out stop their workout and go home.

Guidlines For Not Going To Failure

1) Plyometrics.

Plyometrics is all about developing the stretch reflex. Continueing the movement once your speed has dropped of or nearing failure in the movement defeats the purpose.

2) Technique Movements.

We went over this in a previous post. Loads of 85% of 1RM (1 Repetition Max) for singles are the best method of developing technique movements.

Once your tire, you technique falls apart. You "learn" improper technique. Thus, maxing out and going to failure take you down the wrong road.

Going To Failure

1) Again, once every 3-8 weeks is ok.

2) Disposable Exercises.

Going to failure with auxiliary exercise that work the muscles involved in your sport allows you to push it to the limit without the worry of developing improper technique.

That because you are doing to "dispose" of the exercise for a few month and replace it with another.

Kenny Croxdale

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:46 am

Jebus wrote:John Broz advises people to never do slow grinding reps, always push/pull as fast as you can.
Jebus,

Compensatory Acceleration (Haffield)

You should strive to push the weight as hard and fast as you can.

Slow Grinding Reps

It is impossible not to perform slow grining reps as the load nears you 1RM max.

Slow grinding reps is pretty much the definition of Limit Strength (1 Repeition Max).

So, at some point to increase Limit Strength, you gotta grind out a few slow ones.

Kenny Croxdale

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Paperclip » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:43 am

Thanks Peter and stu for the links, and yes that Ferrugia article was the one that I read.

Also thanks to Kenny for adding some valuable information.

I think I'm going to apply this to my training. Nowadays I feel pretty beaten up without knowing exactly what the cause is. I think some part of it has to do with me removing 2 liters of milk (1500 Cal) from my diet, the reason was apparently it made my digestive system full of gas. Too bad that it tastes good and actually I had no discomfort at all apart from looked somewhat bloated.

EDIT:
BTW that article by Ferrugia made me aware of Arthur Saxon whose interesting book "The Development of Physical Power" can be read online. Apparently the "science" (or "art" if you will) of strength training hasn't really changed for a decade (I mean century doh).

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Jungledoc » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:41 pm

There was an article on T Nation a year or 2 ago--I don't remember the author, but it was someone fairly well-known--someone here will remember. The title didn't correlate well with the contents, as is often the case on T Nation. He classified exercises according to the amount of muscle involved, advising never going to failure on the big compound lifts (except for a rare max test), only occasionally on "medium-sized" exercises, and going to failure as much as you want with small isolation lifts.

Also, the term "failure" is used is several different ways. "Form failure" or "technical failure" is when form starts to break down, and bar speed slows. "Muscular failure" or "absolute failure" is when you just can't get the bar to move any more, no matter how you squirm or twist. Almost everyone involved in weight training would agree that the latter of these is not good. Some people also distinguish between "concentric failure" and "eccentric failure", but I don't know what good the distinction is.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Paperclip » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:29 pm

Jungledoc wrote: Also, the term "failure" is used is several different ways. "Form failure" or "technical failure" is when form starts to break down, and bar speed slows. "Muscular failure" or "absolute failure" is when you just can't get the bar to move any more, no matter how you squirm or twist. Almost everyone involved in weight training would agree that the latter of these is not good.
Isn't that what BBers usually preach (lift to muscular failure)? Maybe I'm just not uptodate to the current BB philosophy.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by tyciol » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:17 pm

This is something that Pavel Tsatsouline is big on with his whole 'grease the groove' method and all that. Stopping short of extreme fatigue so you recover to full strength faster and can do multiple lower-rep sets or train daily. I'm not sure if this is the 'right direction' or not, but it is an advocate that's memorable.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by carlito » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:10 pm

Just curious, what do you all follow in your workouts, do you avoid training to failure on big compound lifts entirely? Like if you hit a rep record, do you leave reps in the tank so to speak? Right now I tend to warmup with bodyweight or a lighter weight, normally 2-3 sets, then I'll do 1 working set attepmting to set a rep record. Then after that sometimes I do 1-2 more sets to failure pretty much/trying to set a rep record with different weight, not if form breaksdown though. Point is I don't generally have a guidline I follow each week, I try to improve every week in terms of weight on the bar and reps. The end result is I'm fried again after 3-4 weeks of this, I'm wondering whether my program needs to have a deload week in it or it needs to change in terms of to failure or not.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by GTO » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:33 pm

What exactly happens when you "fry your cns"? Ive always been curious about this, isn't this really overtraining?

Also wouldn't it lifting to fatigue apply more to lifters lifting near their genetic max and not beginners and intermediates?

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:09 pm

I fail all the time on my presses, sometimes rows, heck even assisted pullups

I'm not sure I know how to push myself to cns frying.


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