Not training to failure

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stuward
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Re: Not training to failure

Post by stuward » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:31 pm

http://www.criticalbench.com/CNS_centra ... atigue.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ampedtraining.com/2010/exerc ... al-fatigue" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.criticalbench.com/cns_fatigue.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bottom line as I see it, going to failure can limit the frequency at which you can train the big movements.


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Re: Not training to failure

Post by carlito » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:48 pm

So is being very tired 3-4 weeks into a program, and needing to take afternoon naps a sign of cns fatigue? Or just complete lack of work capacity?

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by stuward » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:37 pm

Probably poor diet.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Jungledoc » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:35 pm

carlito wrote:So is being very tired 3-4 weeks into a program, and needing to take afternoon naps a sign of cns fatigue? Or just complete lack of work capacity?
I think it could be lots of things. Poor sleep, overtraining (there are probably several different phenomena that get lumped into this), poor diet, viral illness, depression, medication, etc., etc. I'd look at the new program to see if it really allows recovery on the big lifts, given your other activities, sleep patterns, etc.

Yes, I think lifting to failure frequently is not a good idea. I don't think anyone really knows the exact process involved in what people call "CNS fatigue" or "CNS burnout". Is it depletion of neurotransmitters? Most neurotransmitters that I know of are regenerated pretty quickly. Or maybe some substrate ("raw material") for a neurotransmitter? I don't think anyone knows, and it's an incredibly difficult thing to study. It's just that there are symptoms that are most logically attributable to the CNS that occur with excessive training without adequate recovery.

One other thing to think about is that lifting as little as 60% of 1RM can be shown to be beneficial in terms of strength gain. Which tells me that I can probably get most of what I want out of lifting by staying well below the 1RM most of the time. I try not to go to failure on big lifts, except occasional max tests to satisfy my curiosity. None of my lifts are big enough to claim that there is an ego issue, except when there are people around who don't happen to be as strong as me on a given lift!

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by bam » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:22 pm

When I have trouble sleeping for several nights and I feel lethargic during the days and I don't have any interest in working out -- I call that CNS fatigue. I stop working out for several days until I get a good night's sleep. I'm not sure if that's actually CNS fatigue or overload or what but taking a break helps me get back to my program and hit new PRs. I usually go through this every 2-3 months.

Edit: grammar


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Re: Not training to failure

Post by carlito » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:51 am

Jungledoc wrote:I think it could be lots of things. Poor sleep, overtraining (there are probably several different phenomena that get lumped into this), poor diet, viral illness, depression, medication, etc., etc. I'd look at the new program to see if it really allows recovery on the big lifts, given your other activities, sleep patterns, etc.

Yes, I think lifting to failure frequently is not a good idea. I don't think anyone really knows the exact process involved in what people call "CNS fatigue" or "CNS burnout". Is it depletion of neurotransmitters? Most neurotransmitters that I know of are regenerated pretty quickly. Or maybe some substrate ("raw material") for a neurotransmitter? I don't think anyone knows, and it's an incredibly difficult thing to study. It's just that there are symptoms that are most logically attributable to the CNS that occur with excessive training without adequate recovery.
I tend to get atleast 7 hours a night sleep, my diet I really don't think is that bad, I'm getting quite alot of calories (i think), I kind of loosely count them some days, plus im getting over 140g of protein each day. Maybe it is just that; overtraining and not enough recovery.
Jungledoc wrote: One other thing to think about is that lifting as little as 60% of 1RM can be shown to be beneficial in terms of strength gain. Which tells me that I can probably get most of what I want out of lifting by staying well below the 1RM most of the time. I try not to go to failure on big lifts, except occasional max tests to satisfy my curiosity.
After looking at what I've done the past few weeks, I think I've stayed too close to 1rm's, I seems to try to accomplish 2 goals in one workout, a rep record and a weight record. I'm gonna jump back a bit and use lighter weights. Apparently according to some of those articles it's not so bad to go to failure on lighter weights, ie what bodybuilders do.
Jungledoc wrote: None of my lifts are big enough to claim that there is an ego issue, except when there are people around who don't happen to be as strong as me on a given lift!
I fall in that same boat, my lifts are far from impressive, probably why I try to throw more on the bar and burn myself out.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by robertscott » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:32 am

your diet can be good, but you still might not actually be eating enough. What I mean is, you could be eating healthy and making all the right food choices, just not get getting enough total calories to recover.

I dunno, just something to consider

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by jms » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:55 am

For what it's worth, I would agree that it probably has more to do with accumulating fatigue (from whatever) and nutritional requirements. I get the impression that these authors are suggesting that consistent training to failure can reduce performance and hamper gains, not so much that it will cause you to feel burned out - unless whatever you're doing is so intense that you're exceeding your body's capacity to recover, of course.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by robertscott » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:29 am

Olympic athletes suffer from CNS fatigue, mere mortals like us just don't recover enough (eat and sleep)

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by GTO » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:37 pm

Some good links there Stu on CNS fatigue.

I know from my own personal experience that doing dead lifts near my 1rm max is far more taxing on my body then doing something like standing presses. I think when your nearer your genetic limit that its a lot harder on you physically and mentally then someone who is not near their genetic limit (this is probably obvious). I wouldn't think you could overtrain doing something like strait bar curls to fatigue, you might get sore arms and not be doing much good your last few reps, but I doubt your going burn out your cns, compared to doing deads and squats. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first or last time.

Doing a 5-3-1 sometimes it is hard to judge when you have one left in the tank, and I'm guessing I'm not alone when I push that last set the closest to failure (depending on what your definition of failure is)and that's why I have a spot when I bench or safety bars when I squat.

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, I found this to be a good, educational thread.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Jungledoc » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:43 pm

There's a guy named Steve Justa, who has written a book called "Rock, Iron, Steele" in which he advocates a variety of unconventional training techniques. I've been intending to write a detailed review of the book, but haven't gotten around to it. On the one hand, he advocates grueling, long endurance sessions. But he also offers a technique for building a single lift of doing singles at 70%, daily building the volume through the week. He goes on and on about 70% being the ideal training weight. Everything he advocates is built mostly on his personal experience with himself, he's not a trainer or coach, but I find that intriguing.

My point being that he has successfully increased his strength fairly dramatically by lifting close to 70%, never to failure.

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by TimD » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:54 pm

Doc, I actually went through one of his singles lifts, and they are not easy as they may look. I did the one where you pick a single , or at least no more than 2 singles, and do them every day. I picked the clean and press. On a 7 day cycle, you work with 70% @ 3 reps, and add 2 every day. Timing, rest is up to you, just get through it. So a week would look like 3,5,7,9,11,13,15. Then add a little weight and start over. It got really hard for me after 11, but it got easy again from 3-7.
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Re: Not training to failure

Post by Jungledoc » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:11 am

Wow, Tim. I'm glad to hear of somebody trying that. It sounds intriguing, but I would have a hard time lifting every day. I'd like to try it for bench, but to get the the weight room when I'm on call would be tough, and finding a spotter on demand tougher.

Did you do any other kind of training while you were doing that? Like any lower body?

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by TimD » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:27 pm

Yeah, Doc. I got the impression after 2 weeks that I needed something else, so what I did was add a front squat into the mix. A single was 1 PC, 1 Press, 1 front squat. That combination in that order seemed to make sense. However, that said, from what I had seen in the other forums, Bryce's in particular, most of the guys use a press and a squat or Deadlift separate from each other. Exercise 1 might be Push press, Exercise 2 might be back squat. Either way would probably work well. I only did it for 4 weeks, and I think that if one wanted to go past that, it would be good to deload or quit the focus exercise(s) for at least a week, then start over a bit higher at your new 70% 1 RM.
Just a side note, if someone is interested in using complexes, like I am, they work together well with this in the first part of the week.
Tim

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Re: Not training to failure

Post by TimD » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:33 pm

Doc, on similar lines, seeing as you asked for combinations, this thing here called Have it All by Bryce Lane was very popular with the strength-strength endurance group around 10 years ago, and still cooking today. It's kind of a combination of Justa's singles meet Staley"s
EDT. I never tried this one per se, but it looks pretty interersting

http://www.ironsports.tv/it_all.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tim


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