Is training three times a week...

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nygmen
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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by nygmen » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:12 pm

Jungledoc wrote:Yeah, it looks like the OP may have dropped out of this.

If you're still following this, have we helped or confused you?

:lol:

I got 10 on confused, lol


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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:30 am

nygmen wrote:
Oscar_Actuary wrote:I wonder if Kenny will come in here as belive he has talked about Intensity and Time.
I did not see you all debate with him when it's been broght up before, perhaps it was an oversight.
I have no dog in the race

I take more than an hour, but I'm slow.
I certainly didn't mean to "come at you" in any way. I just feel like that rule is doodoo.

Are you going to be as strong after 90 mins as you were during the first 20? Nope.

Does it matter if you are still progressing on your lifts over the course of 60 months? Nope.
I did not feel you were attacking at all. I'm too ignorant relative to you all t have a strong opinion. It just seems when Kenny talks about this, there would have been a good chance for more discussion.
I'll conclude it's just a matter of diminishing returns, the slope is still positive, just the 2nd derivative has gone negative (any calculus fans out there?) after a certain time of intensie training

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by TimD » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:52 am

Not Kenny, but, the idea of the 60 mins is based on the "scientific studies" (judge as you will) that the bodies stops major production of hgh and testosterone around 45 to 60 mins exercise. OK, that said, after experience since 1962, I usually can't go for over an hour and produce anything productive anyway. Now, that doesn't mean you're limited to just a couple of exercises, I'm quite used to complexes and circuits, and have used them alot. Nightfallfall made a comment of ATP reconstitution being 3-5 mins, BUT, that's based on intensitiy. IF you use 1 or two major compounds, and follow it up with assistance, then you might take 30 or so mins with the lower rep, higher intensitiy compounds, but keep the rest to 1 min or so between sets with the accessory exercises mentioned, and you will keep the workout to around an hour or less. With the isolations, or partial isolations for accessory, you won't be using maximum intensities anyway. As to volume, I've seen plenty of trainees over the years using lowered volume, meaning 2-4 work sets on the focus compounds, and maybe 3-4 sets (combined) on the quicker paced accessory stuff with a minute or so rest between sets get plenty big.

Now, this kind of applies to another thread, where RS was mentioning the WSB programs. I'd have to verify with Peter on this, as he trains with them, but I think that is a great laid out program, definately not going only with the 3 major moves, and using a lot of assistances, but doubt one of those workouts last much longer than an hour.
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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by Neurosis » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:07 am

Wow..some great advice for me to read through. Nygmen, what should I be looking at over 4 days?

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by nygmen » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:44 am

I may come back and change this tonight, but quickly this:

Day 1
*Front squats - ramp up to a 5 rep max 1 or 2 work sets
*DB or BB Flat bench - ramp up to a 5 rep max, 2 or 3 work sets
*DB or BB Incline - ramp up to a 5 rep max, 1 or 2 work sets
Lateral raises - 3 or 4 sets of 8-12 reps
Pushdowns - 3 or 4 sets of 8-12 reps
cable or DB flies if your feeling peppy.

Day 2
*Deads or Rack pulls - ramp up to a 5RM - 1 work set (MAYBE 2 worksets)
*Tbar or BB rows - sets of 8-12 reps, 3 or 4 work sets
Pulldowns or chins - sets of 8-12 reps, 3 or 4 work sets
DB rows - sets of 12-20, 1 or 2 work sets
Curl variation - sets of 8+ reps, 2 or 3 sets total
Different curl variation - same

Day 3 (Take an off day between day 2 and 3)
*Back squat - ramp up to 5RM - 3+ work sets
*Leg Press - sets of 8-25 - 2 or 3 work sets
any other leg assistance, high rep work

Day 4
*OH press - ramp up to a 5RM, 1-3 worksets
Lateral Raises - same as before
Rear delt work - same as lateral raises
*BB row - Same as before
Close grip bench
curl variation
*Shrugs - sets of 15-25, as heavy as humanly possible, 1 or 2 work sets


* = look to add weight to each lift as fast as possible. 5lbs a workout, 10 if you can. But shoot for no less than 10lbs a month if you can. Push yourself, but keep form.

EDIT: I forgot skull crushers because they murder my elbows, but throw them in on day 1 or 4.

EDIT 2: For the iso/assistance/non-stared work, start with a weight that is challenging for 8 reps, try and add reps each workout, once you can can 12 reps, instantly move up the weight. So, if week one you hit 9 reps with some DB curls with 30lbs, and week 2 you hit 12 reps, week 3 you are going to want to be using the 35lbs dumbells.

Also, ramp all the time. I'm not a huge fan of straight sets. Although I do them now for a very specific purpose, I don't like them for beginners. I'd rather see someone progressively work up to a heavier and heavier weight.


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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by Neurosis » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:43 am

Good stuff there mate..but I forgot to mention my lumbar spine issues. I suffer from lordosis so Overheads are probably out..and probably squats too.

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by Jungledoc » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:19 am

Neurosis wrote:Good stuff there mate..but I forgot to mention my lumbar spine issues. I suffer from lordosis so Overheads are probably out..and probably squats too.
Why? Just learn to do it right.

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:46 am

nygmen,

that was nice of you.

You like working them delts!

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by robertscott » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:39 am

you gotta work them delts. Shoulders make the man.

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by Beginner » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:59 pm

Is it possible to do 3 Day Split Workouts (http://www.exrx.net/Lists/WorkoutMenu.h ... hor1682197" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) only 3 days a week? I'm asking this because these templates are recommended for intermediate training (http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Instructions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and frequency for that level of training should be 2-3 days per week, according to these guidelines http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Guidelines.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The sticky topic about stupid questions encouraged me to ask this :smile:

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by nygmen » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:18 pm

Oscar,
robertscott wrote:you gotta work them delts. Shoulders make the man.
This. I made the mistake of not giving my side delts enough attention for a long time. It has taken nothing less than pain staking effort to bring them UP to lagging, from so under developed I looked flipping awful.

I believe I have him hitting everything roughly twice a week if not indirectly, directly. Side delts shoudln't be more than that. If it is it is a typo on my part.
Jungledoc wrote:
Neurosis wrote:Good stuff there mate..but I forgot to mention my lumbar spine issues. I suffer from lordosis so Overheads are probably out..and probably squats too.
Why? Just learn to do it right.
I agree with the good doctor.

Sit down for the OH press if you have to, but there is no way to replace the squat.

It is one of the few things I don't think a trainee should skip. It is just something your going to have to have the guts to learn and dominate. Squatting will make you a man.

There are going to be cases where injury is going to prevent squatting, but seeing as the Doc is a Doc and thinks you can with your condition, you should.

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by pdellorto » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:30 pm

nygmen wrote:I may come back and change this tonight, but quickly this:
If a beginner came along and said, "I'm doing this program" and posted what you just posted, I'd tell them to just get in the gym and start lifting. It seems pretty complete. The only thing I'd change is to swap out the leg press for a single-leg exercise. That's for three reasons:

1) Most people I've seen leg press do it very, very badly on not-very-well-designed machines. Arched backs, knees tracking all sorts of places, machines with "weights" skewed to the point that 10-year olds can press 200+ pounds for easy sets of 10.

2) You need a leg press, so it's not as "portable" of a routine.

3) Everybody I met does something single-legged in their life, with significant side-to-side discrepancies, so it's easier to start ironing that out from day one.

But otherwise, nothing wrong with doing that. It's not necessarily how I'd start everyone, but it's very good. If Tim or Ironman sticky that somewhere or pull it out as "Good Enough to Keep" I'd point it out to people as a potential routine.

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by pdellorto » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:34 pm

TimD wrote:Now, this kind of applies to another thread, where RS was mentioning the WSB programs. I'd have to verify with Peter on this, as he trains with them, but I think that is a great laid out program, definately not going only with the 3 major moves, and using a lot of assistances, but doubt one of those workouts last much longer than an hour.
Tim
Sessions at DeFranco's are about an hour. WS4SB3 will fit into hour-long sessions, plus warmup time if you have an extensive warmup.

And I train longer than 60 minutes almost every single session, much longer counting a warmup. I often walk in the door at DeFranco's 30 minutes early and spend those 30 minutes foam rolling, lacrosse all rolling, doing band work, mobility drills, etc. and then jumping rope. Then I work out for anywhere from 45-75 minutes, sometimes longer, and then I go home. My MMA classes are 90 minutes or so. My kickboxing classes in Japan were 2-3 hours long.

Needless to say the more intense the workout, the shorter it is - circuit day isn't 90 minutes long even counting my warmup. But I think 60 minutes is just a semi-useful guideline that should get tossed out the window like you toss out training wheels once you learn to ride.

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by KenDowns » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:37 pm

Oscar_Actuary wrote: I'll conclude it's just a matter of diminishing returns, the slope is still positive, just the 2nd derivative has gone negative (any calculus fans out there?) after a certain time of intensie training
:headbang:

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Re: Is training three times a week...

Post by nygmen » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:34 am

pdellorto wrote:
nygmen wrote:I may come back and change this tonight, but quickly this:
If a beginner came along and said, "I'm doing this program" and posted what you just posted, I'd tell them to just get in the gym and start lifting. It seems pretty complete. The only thing I'd change is to swap out the leg press for a single-leg exercise. That's for three reasons:

1) Most people I've seen leg press do it very, very badly on not-very-well-designed machines. Arched backs, knees tracking all sorts of places, machines with "weights" skewed to the point that 10-year olds can press 200+ pounds for easy sets of 10.

2) You need a leg press, so it's not as "portable" of a routine.

3) Everybody I met does something single-legged in their life, with significant side-to-side discrepancies, so it's easier to start ironing that out from day one.

But otherwise, nothing wrong with doing that. It's not necessarily how I'd start everyone, but it's very good. If Tim or Ironman sticky that somewhere or pull it out as "Good Enough to Keep" I'd point it out to people as a potential routine.
Good points about the leg press.

I'm pretty honored by your endorsement Pete, thanks a lot. That really means a lot to me.

If that is the case with moving or adding to the stickie, I would like to make a new thread and include your post about the leg press. And maybe pontificate a bit more...

Wow, thanks again man.


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