Intermediate 5/3/1?

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Oscar_Actuary
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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:20 am

as you strugle with finding the line between beginner routine and intermediate, I keep asking myself why do you worry about using a template.

You seem like one that could design your own, having learned many lessons from doing it wrong in the past.

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KenDowns
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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by KenDowns » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:33 am

mark74 wrote:
KenDowns wrote:Since the numbers are my own, I can look at them and feel how much work it looks like. Not surprisingly as deload number every individual exercise looks downright easy. It's an open question how they will add up.
The deload week in the original program is there for a reason, that's why cramming many exercises in just one day seems counterproductive to me.
I think it depends on how advanced you are. I'm only 3 weeks post-Stronglifts where I was doing 3 major lifts a day, and on Madcow I still do 3 major lifts/day. I'm just now getting to be able to push enough weight that this is becoming a problem, that is, I'm seriously wiped out after workouts.

Wendler's 5/3/1 on the other hand is for advanced lifters who can push enough weight to require a month-long stress/recovery cycle. I simply don't need that, I'm not strong enough.

So there are two ways to self-program an intermediate program, or so it seems to me:

1) Stretch out a Stronglifts-style program to 2 weeks and add some deloading to the cycle.

2) Squash down a 5/3/1 program into two weeks and make it fit by

a) From stronglifts perspective, *dropping* to two major lifts/day
b) From 5/3/1 perspective, *increasing* to two major lifts/day

If you look at madcow you see that not all lifts are treated the same. Only squats gets a full 3 days of Heavy, Deload, Increase. Bench and Row skip the deload day, and Deads and Row are plain old fashioned linear progression week-to-week with only one session each per week.

So the deload day is the only real variable I haven't resolved. Keeping in mind this is for a very recent Stronglifts gradudate, simplicity is probably better than complexity. Options are:

1) for all exercises drop the 3/3/3 day and go 5/5/5 to 5/3/1 to deload.

2) for all exercises drop 5/3/1 entirely and use the Madcow Heavy-Deload-Increase cycle

3) force all four 5/3/1 days into a 2-week cycle doing 2 major lifts/day, requiring a 4-day week.

4) for all exercises drop the deload day (gasp) and go 5/5/5 to 3/3/3 to 5/3/1 on the theory that I'm such an early intermediate that deloading might not yet be necessary.
Last edited by KenDowns on Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by KenDowns » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:35 am

Oscar_Actuary wrote:as you strugle with finding the line between beginner routine and intermediate, I keep asking myself why do you worry about using a template.

You seem like one that could design your own, having learned many lessons from doing it wrong in the past.
Um, that's what I'm doing - designing my own. With many helpful comments from Mark.

EDIT: For what its worth doing it wrong doesn't teach you much. Doing stronglifts strictly as written is the only thing that allowed me to grasp the theory of more complex programs and consider writing my own.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:18 pm

KenDowns wrote:
Oscar_Actuary wrote:as you strugle with finding the line between beginner routine and intermediate, I keep asking myself why do you worry about using a template.

You seem like one that could design your own, having learned many lessons from doing it wrong in the past.
Um, that's what I'm doing - designing my own. With many helpful comments from Mark.

EDIT: For what its worth doing it wrong doesn't teach you much. Doing stronglifts strictly as written is the only thing that allowed me to grasp the theory of more complex programs and consider writing my own.
with all due respect (don't you hate that phrase) the irony of this statement is not lost on me.
As I was reading the post above, I thought "How timely, right after mine." You list your options, all of which are limited by the parameters of two templates. Yes, it's your own design and obviously, I have no dog in this race. I'm trying to not be critical but to be encouraging. To open your mind to more options than picking a place in between two somewhat similar programs. Of course we learn why something like Stronglifts works by doing it, not by doing a dumb home designed program. I also figure you learn more why your old program designs weren't as effective.

Mark is always helpful

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by Proper Knob » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:27 pm

KenDowns wrote:Wendler's 5/3/1 on the other hand is for advanced lifters who can push enough weight to require a month-long stress/recovery cycle. I simply don't need that, I'm not strong enough.
Ken, you're over thinking it all. I started using the 5/3/1 template with training maxes that aren't too dissimilar to yours. It is not just for advanced lifters.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by ellerbus » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:42 pm

KenDowns wrote:...
Why not just MROUND()? That's what I use. Mround( 1RM * Percentage, Plate*2)
Not to derail, but thanks Ken I never knew about MROUND ... actually just called my own function everytime (I love finding out about things that reduce my code maintenance).

Code: Select all

Public Function RoundOn5(value As Double) As Integer
    
    RoundOn5 = CInt(Int((value + 2.5) / 5) * 5)

End Function

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by mark74 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:14 pm

Proper Knob wrote:Ken, you're over thinking it all. I started using the 5/3/1 template with training maxes that aren't too dissimilar to yours. It is not just for advanced lifters.
That's what I told him in the other thread. However, I would not call this overthinking, he's just refusing the idea that his progress will have to slow down to monthly increases and trying to work his way around that. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it can lead to good things, although costly mistakes are also very much possible. In this case what's the worst that can possibly happen? overtraining would be my guess.
Oscar_Actuary wrote:Mark is always helpful
Yeah I know, sometimes I should just keep my mouth shut :green:

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Proper Knob
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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by Proper Knob » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:37 pm

mark74 wrote:he's just refusing the idea that his progress will have to slow down to monthly increases and trying to work his way around that.
The training max may slow to a monthly increase, or three weekly increase if the deload is skipped, but that doesn't mean progress won't be achieved every workout.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by mark74 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:49 pm

That's true, the magic of '+' sets.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by KenDowns » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:45 pm

Short Answer

Don't know which of these I'll do.

This routine uses 5/3/1 without the deload on the idea that an early intermediate does not need it.

http://www.downsfam.net/intermediate-5-3-1-nodeload.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This routine uses 5/3/1 but drops the 3/3/3+ day on the idea that deloading is necessary:

http://www.downsfam.net/intermediate-5-3-1-deload.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Derivation

The program is derived like so:

1) Take stronglifts 2 week cycle
2) Drop squats from dead/press days
3) Add chins (or pullups) to dead/press days
4) Replace 5x5 with 5/3/1 according to one of the two schemes above
5) Treat rows as a primary lift for the early intermediate, use 5/3/1 instead of 3x8 or 5x15 as Wendler suggests for accessories.

Remarks (um, Rant actually)

To restate what is very clear in the literature:

1) beginner: the periodization and progress are collapsed into one session, deloading is ad-hoc as needed for stalls.

2) intermediate: periodization and progress are expanded to 1 or 2 weeks, deloading is mild and even optional (see Madcow or Texas Method, no deloading for Press or Deadlift, bench "deloading" is skipping bench on one day)

3) advanced: periodization and progress require at least one month, deloading activity is 3/4 of sessions.

4) elite: way beyond my pay grade :smile:

Practical Programming

Rippetoe and Kilgore present many graphs which imply there are formulas governing them. However, as R & K are clearly not afraid of math, the absence of the formulas suggests the graphs are a result of observation and no underlying formulas have been sought (or nobody is publishing them).

But the shape of the graphs and the differences between programs at various stages makes it clear that things like recovery time and adaptation vary wildly at high levels of training and simplify (in mathematical lingo we would say terms "drop out") at earlier levels.

Hence the the only question I don't feel comfortable trying to answer is whether to ignore the deload (assuming it drops out for early intermediates) or drop the 3/3/3+ (assuming deload does not drop out for early intermediates).

I'm done.

Thanks for the many helpful comments. Oscar, thanks for your comments also :joker:

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by mark74 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:57 am

Now I should probably heed my own advice, but I think what the others are trying to tell you is that:
KenDowns wrote:To restate what is very clear in the literature:

1) beginner: the periodization and progress are collapsed into one session, deloading is ad-hoc as needed for stalls.

2) intermediate: periodization and progress are expanded to 1 or 2 weeks, deloading is mild and even optional (see Madcow or Texas Method, no deloading for Press or Deadlift, bench "deloading" is skipping bench on one day)

3) advanced: periodization and progress require at least one month, deloading activity is 3/4 of sessions.

4) elite: way beyond my pay grade :smile:
distinctions that are useful and very clear in the literature, might not be identified in the real world with a significant degree of accurateness or be that practical anyway.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by stuward » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:55 am

For what it's worth, the next level is sports periodization which is summarized here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_periodization" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What you've been talking about so far is the Microcycle. Sports periodization is why the pro trainers get the big bucks.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by KenDowns » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:00 am

@mark:

The internet is a funny thing. It allows the entire world to miscommunicate at pace never seen before.

My OP was a question to which I received many useful comments -- your first comment being one of the most useful. But productive discussion in a text-only format between people that (most of us) have never met in person has severe limitations.

So when I posted an example stressing one aspect of a possible program, I was told I was ignoring important ideas. When I posted a rationale for what other examples might look like somebody said I was overthinking. Then I get defensive and shift from having fun thinking about a program to trying to prove something.

I really was just trying to have fun. I like this stuff. I love to lift, I love to understand things. I benefited a great deal especially from your comments. Thanks.

If you feel I've missed something very important, please bear with me and state it from scratch w/o reference to earlier posts, I think the 2nd half of the thread started to suffer from some static, including my own.

Peace.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by mark74 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:16 am

KenDowns wrote:Then I get defensive and shift from having fun thinking about a program to trying to prove something.
No need to, everybody's just trying to help you. Honestly I wish I had that much constructive feedback whenever I start a new thread :lol: Relax, do things the way you want and have fun :thumbright:

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by stuward » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:20 am

ellerbus wrote:
KenDowns wrote:...
Why not just MROUND()? That's what I use. Mround( 1RM * Percentage, Plate*2)
Not to derail, but thanks Ken I never knew about MROUND ... actually just called my own function everytime (I love finding out about things that reduce my code maintenance).

Code: Select all

Public Function RoundOn5(value As Double) As Integer
    
    RoundOn5 = CInt(Int((value + 2.5) / 5) * 5)

End Function
This function is part of the Analysis Tool Kit. That's fine if you have it loaded but I don't have access to it on my work machine. I have to take it as issed.

What I've always done is: =round(number/5,0)*5 If I want to round up I do: =round((number/5+.5),0)*5

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