Intermediate 5/3/1?

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by Jungledoc » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:09 pm

Ken--I don't remember anyone mentioning the Texas Method, but since you've read Practical Programming, you are obviously aware of it.

My suggestion is to go ahead and try your idea for a few weeks (doing all three rep patterns, compressed into 2 days). It wouldn't hurt you, not without warning anyway. It doesn't look unreasonable to me. You might think about inserting an extra rest day occasionally. Just see how it goes.


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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by KenDowns » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:15 pm

Doc:

Texas Method appears to be very similar to Madcow.

At this point I've actually read Starting Strength through completely about twice (some sections 4-5 times), but am only getting through my first read of Practical Programming. PP is much denser and cannot be breezed through.

I like your statement that it cannot hurt without warning. This is what I was thinking, if trouble looms it will loom quickly, a fast stall, failure to recover, etc.

My one open question about whether to include the deload days was answered definitively on Page 79 of PP, but it simply told me something we all should know. On the deload days you are practicing power production, if it is left out on the idea that an early intermediate may not need to deload, then you have nothing but 5's and heavy triples and singles and that power production practice is lost. So that matter is closed in my mind.

So I'm doing week 1 of this starting tomorrow, then I have vacation for a week. I'm using that first week as an experiment -- if the higher tonnage on Day 1 interferes with Days 2 or 3 I'll know very early that it is not going to work.

I've refined the spreadsheet to its final form with a few conveniences added:

http://www.downsfam.net/intermediate-5-3-1-deload.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by jlmoss » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:23 pm

That looks pretty hawt to me... it's fun to watch the thought process of someone going through the stages of beginner to midway to intermediate. Gives me some experience and thought as to what I'll be doing once I get there in 3 - 6 months.

Since you've been reading it now, is the PP book any good? Worth getting it now and reading ahead of time?

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by KenDowns » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:30 pm

jlmoss wrote:Since you've been reading it now, is the PP book any good? Worth getting it now and reading ahead of time?
PP is the so far the single most dense and information-packed book on training I've read, about the best 20.00 you can spend, along with Starting Strength.

You have to love anybody who quotes Heinlein and Twain repeatedly.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by Jungledoc » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:00 pm

KenDowns wrote:I've refined the spreadsheet to its final form with a few conveniences added:

http://www.downsfam.net/intermediate-5-3-1-deload.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My only suggestion at this point is to back off on the accessory lifts. Doing a 5/3/1 progression on them in addition to packing in a lot of the big lifts might just put the program over the top. Wendler suggests (IIRC) 5 sets of 5-10 reps. I don't know if he makes a suggestion on loading in terms of %1RM, but I'd think that something like 50-60% would be reasonable. You want to be able to do 50 to 100 reps with good form and be leaving a few in the tank on each set.


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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by KenDowns » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:44 pm

Jungledoc wrote:
KenDowns wrote:I've refined the spreadsheet to its final form with a few conveniences added:

http://www.downsfam.net/intermediate-5-3-1-deload.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My only suggestion at this point is to back off on the accessory lifts. Doing a 5/3/1 progression on them in addition to packing in a lot of the big lifts might just put the program over the top.
Agreed. This is now the only unresolved issue for me.

Rows

The options here are:

A) Stronglifts, a beginner program, treats Rows as a major lift with 5x5 on linear progression. The argument in favor of continuing this way is that I'm still late beginner/early intermediate and Rows can still be treated as a major lift.

B) Wendler says to treat it as an accessory and do like 5x10.

So it's kind of down to the devil I know and the devil I don't.

But then I have to ask what Wendler is after, which you answer:
Jungledoc wrote: You want to be able to do 50 to 100 reps with good form and be leaving a few in the tank on each set.
So that tips it in favor of doing 5x10.

Chins

The spreadsheet has these worked up as a major as well just as a working default, but the honest truth is I've made all of my progress by following the various links in the sticky, which talk about doing sets of 10 with resistance bands to build up. This has worked very well for me. So if I stick with what works these would also switch to 3x10 or 5x10 with resistance bands (as my current max reps bodyweight is 8).

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by bam » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:46 am

Jungledoc wrote:
KenDowns wrote:I've refined the spreadsheet to its final form with a few conveniences added:

http://www.downsfam.net/intermediate-5-3-1-deload.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My only suggestion at this point is to back off on the accessory lifts. Doing a 5/3/1 progression on them in addition to packing in a lot of the big lifts might just put the program over the top. Wendler suggests (IIRC) 5 sets of 5-10 reps. I don't know if he makes a suggestion on loading in terms of %1RM, but I'd think that something like 50-60% would be reasonable. You want to be able to do 50 to 100 reps with good form and be leaving a few in the tank on each set.
fm Wendler, Assistance Work #1: Boring But Big wrote:The big question here is how much weight to use for the “down” sets of 10 reps. The first time you try this, go light. Very light. Go with something you know will be easy – maybe around 30-40% of your max. From there, you can work with 50-60%, or whatever you want. You don’t have to progress on these down sets, although you don’t have to use the same weight, either. Although you can. It simply doesn’t matter! Just do 5 sets of 10 reps and build some muscle. Since you’re already warmed up, you can pyramid down here.
For example:
Squat – 315x10, 315x10, 275x10, 245x10, 245x10
You can stay with the same weight for all the sets, but that’s boring as hell. Boring, but big.
I think the most interesting part of Wendler's quote is: "It simply doesn’t matter!"
It would be nice to know why he thinks that.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by mark74 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:09 am

Thank bam for that quote, I was just about to say that down sets can be quite crippling. Also, coming from SS/SL and such we aren't adapted to high volume, and me I don't adapt as quick as a kid. (remember me saying in the other thread you have free rein to kill yourself with assistance and I promptly did?)

Besides you should be able to progress on accessory work too. So definitely start light and be cautious when adding weight. Adding too much too quickly may interfere with your main 5/3/1 workload.

PS: as for the Row accessory VS main. Accessory gets my vote. Why? Because Wendler says so and 5/3/1 is its program. In another program it might be main. But if that means anything, rowing is accessory in SS too.

PPS: @ jlmoss. Definitely get PP! But after you get it, put it on a shelf and focus on getting the most out of SS.

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Re: Intermediate 5/3/1?

Post by KenDowns » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:17 am

I've finished PP up through Intermediate, and there are two big take-aways.

First, my current working idea goes heavy->PR->deload, but R & K assume an intermediate program as heavy->deload->PR, and give very specific advice on what to do for failures on heavy day or PR day. To gain advantage of that advice, switching this to heavy-deload-PR makes sense.

Second, Wendler's 5/3/1 various rep/set schemes are consistent with K & R's advice for the intermediate, which I suppose should not surprise anybody.

So that makes this program less of a "Wendler 5/3/1 squashed into 2 weeks" and more of a "Bastardized Texas/Madcow/Stronglifts using Wendler's 5, deload and 5/3/1 days".

I also moved the stuff you fill in to page 1, so you don't mess with page 2.

Edit: decided to stick with what I know for rows and chins. Use resistance bands to get me to 3x10 bodyweight, and continue to treat rows as main lift for as long as it works.

http://www.downsfam.net/intermediate-5-3-1-h-dl-pr.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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