Doing it Wrong

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Oscar_Actuary
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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:17 pm

robertscott wrote:I think I just worked out what name Erick posts under on a certain site who's forums I occasionally read but very rarely post on...
oh? ETA: Ah.. I so slow. Ok, yep, got it. I like that forum's directness, albeit, not a member
robertscott wrote:Most people just don't like lifting weights as much as we do.
Occam's razor, aka, we do what we want to do.

Though, a difference here is that most people who start lifting know it's something they should do. They don't expect to love it.
I cannot repeat enough how it's the fact that sometimes it just sucks balls (sorry Stephen) and I still go back and do it again, that really makes me love it - love it as a companion in my life to offset the other crap I have no control over.


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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:11 am

Hoose: I think that's the longest post you've ever posted here. Amazing. And pretty right on.

Bob: Ya, know, I think you're right. And I don't think there is much predicting who will like it. I have friends who are very disciplined, achievers, hard workers, not afraid of challenges, but I just can't get them into the weight room. I feel like if they just tried it, they'd love it as much as I do, but they don't.

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by RobertB » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:45 am

The thing is though Nygmen... there's always that argument isn't there

What we do from there is refinement and guidance. "on average" squats help people develop overall strength, "on average" you should isolate triceps to help your pressing. All this information speeds up our experimentation, at the very least offering us a snapshot of what the most common issues are.

You have a lot of people agreeing with you, including some of my heroes ;) so I assume I'm missing some of the point you want to put across - but your point just seems like a general sort of "work out more, read less" well... it depends on your progress doesn't it... if reading one tiny piece of information that just happens to resolve it for you, then your point is a poor one, if someone skips a gym session because they are reading a lifting forum, squats twice as much as they "need" to for their big arms and chest, or quite frankly, makes good progress doing a fun random isolated split, then you do have a point.

But GENERALLY there is a lot of stuff worth reading/following that bennefits the GENERAL lifting community, so it is important they read.... Generally :wink:

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by teafan » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:02 am

Regarding lifting, I have one or two friends who listen to me prattle on, a couple that want to pull everything I say apart and a few more who want to discuss it. I have noticed lately that the ones who want to pull it apart seem to do so less and are either falling into the listening category or even the discussion category. I don't know why that happened, can only guess that they have seen what i've done/talked about "work" and changed their tune.

One of my friends has been going to the gym to lift for over a decade (a council owned gym - machines, dumbbells, no barbell - in fact he thinks barbells are a waste of time because you can lift more weight on a machine :sad:) and has made zero visible progress. When I first got into lifting he would talk about the stuff he did until he ran out of breath - he was "all about the chest". Literally, did his chest three or four times a week. Didn't like to do his back, didn't like to do his legs, didn't like to do anything but his breasts! He always used machines, occasionally dumbbells (but only then for bicep curls). I always said he should balance his routine out and work on all areas but he simply wasnt interested. I took it to mean he didnt buy into what I was saying, making him think "I've been doing this a decade, what does he know about it?".

Anyway, I managed to do a 160kg Squat a few months ago and was telling him about it one night when we (and our wives) had gone to the cinema, he says: "160kg isnt a lot of weight for a squat you know!". I replied; "Are you talking about a barbell squat, a smith machine squat or a leg press?". He says: "It doesnt matter, it's all the same weight. 160kg is 160kg. I push 160kg on a leg press easily". I laughed, stating: "Ok, on Saturday we're going to go to my gym and we're going to put a 160kg barbell on your back and you're going to try and Squat it... and when it crushes you and ruins your life we'll hear no more about a leg press being the same as a squat."

This guy knows what I have been doing has been working - the diet, the lifts, the full package; but instead of discussing what I do he continues to tell me what I should be doing, despite the fact that his techniques have never delivered the results he wants. He tells me that protein doesnt work, tells me his diet of largely bread is fine. I dont want to tell him to do anything in particular, I just want to tell him to try something different for a change. That and to focus on his diet. He wont listen. His program is litteraly that - programmed. How could he be wrong? How could he have spent over ten years of trial and error, making mistakes but learning nothing? Yes, time under the bar is the best teacher but never underestimate the stupidity of human beings! :lol:

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by The_dog_mom » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:15 am

The best piece of advice for me, and the thing that seemed to turn it around was pdellorto reply to my box squat post.
My squat is best when I'm so tight that everything is uncomfortable. I can't wait for the set to finish because holding my back, arms, legs, etc. tight, driving my knees out, sitting back, keeping my chest up, etc. is misery. I just want to bang out my 1, 3, 5, or whatever reps and rack the bar.
At that point I got it. had he not said it I would have continued to work out but I knew I was missing something and did not have the experience to figure out what it what it was. To read tighten up is one thing but to read it the way pdellorto put it gave me an understanding as to what the phrase means.

You have a lot of people agreeing with you, including some of my heroes ;) so I assume I'm missing some of the point you want to put across - but your point just seems like a general sort of "work out more, read less" well... it depends on your progress doesn't it... if reading one tiny piece of information that just happens to resolve it for you, then your point is a poor one, if someone skips a gym session because they are reading a lifting forum, squats twice as much as they "need" to for their big arms and chest, or quite frankly, makes good progress doing a fun random isolated split, then you do have a point.
And I could not agree more!


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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by robertscott » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:02 am

KenDowns wrote:
I am not really disciplined at things I don't like to do, it takes real effort. I like to lift weights, even when it is brutal and painful. That's why I do it. Go figure.
I'm exactly the same, when it comes to lifting weights I'll happily hit the gym 4 times a week and keep my diet clean as a whistle; force feeding myself a big bowl of eggs on days my macros are a little off and only eating a cheat meal once in a week.

So on the face of it I look pretty disciplined. My other hobby is writing music, which means a lot of time in front of a computer, and sometimes I have to work to a deadline (you can tell when this is by how active I am on the boards, in the past I've done 16 hour stints in front of the computer!) which is essentially just work. So when it's the 2 things I like, I'm the hardest worker on the planet.

When it comes to an actual JOB however, I am literally the most work shy person on the planet. I probably work harder at avoiding having to work than I would have to if I just actually did some work!

my point is, you have to love the process and everything that comes with it. Had a good workout? It's the best feeling ever. Terrible workout? You just KNOW you're going to hit a PR next time. Hurt your shoulder? Time to work on your front squat.

I think sometimes that even if my hit my absolute peak in terms of size and strength, and I couldn't get any better, I'd still be in the gym 4 days a week because I just. Freaking. Love. Lifting. Weights.

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by nygmen » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:44 am

RobertB wrote: but your point just seems like a general sort of "work out more, read less" well...

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying it doesn't matter all that much. I read A LOT about lifting, a lot. I know kids who make good progress and don't read half of what I do. I know kids that read twice as much as I do and make much less progress.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: you are either going to make it or you're not. Most won't. So, is doing it wrong, if you stick with it, even a bad thing? Is there even such thing as "doing it wrong"? (Outside of someone that blows out their shoudlers from only benching, etc etc etc.)

I'm not saying people shouldn't squat or any of that. I'm just saying I don't know if there is a "wrong" way, if you keep coming back... Because in the end, those that are going to achieve above average, are going to figure out what they need evenutally.

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by RobertB » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:59 am

Fair enough, I can still see how I infered that, but to take another stab at it... I suppose your main argument is not to be too robotic in regards to what works and what does not? (i.e. squat now or fail!), as consistency/attitude/effort (then the whole gene side) will be the main key to progress.
When it comes to an actual JOB however, I am literally the most work shy person on the planet. I probably work harder at avoiding having to work than I would have to if I just actually did some work!
Lol - had this mini argument with my manager (he's a sound guy so more of a discussion) they essentially cherry picked me off another contract because I did really well to get it off the ground and come up with ideas to (forgive the wording) "streamline" and build communication between delivery units - but they dropped me into a well established role, I didn't come up with ideas, I didn't/don't enjoy it half as much, so now everyone thinks I've suddenly got depression / decided to be lazy out of spite. Wont go on rambling/hijack but similar trait there "other Rob" :smile:

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by Khronos8 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:26 am

I think to answer Nygman's question you'd have to do some sort of rather extensive statistical survey to look for correlations. You cant just eyeball the data (anecdotal information at that) and draw conclusions.

"Doing it right" for me means training so that you dont injure yourself or obtain results that leave you prone to injury (imbalances). Anecdotally it seems that many people dont have the dedication to train long enough to produce either result (this is what I think you are saying).

That being said, my thesis is that it is important to "do it right". Why? If you do then you are less likely to injure yourself or produce dangerous imbalances. You are also more likely to achieve the desired result, either appearance or strength based. Achieving the desired result is (I think) more likely to lead to continued training.

These are my opinions and assumptions, but that's what I think. The experiment to test this theory would be to take two trainee populations with the exact same dedication (impossible) and let one train "bad" and have one train "good" (almost impossible). Then see which population has a greater training continuity.

Sounds like a neat human psychology experiment for a grad student to carry out. :wink:

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by CorlessJohnJ » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:47 am

stuward wrote:
nygmen wrote:...I feel like those that quit would have eventually no? Am I just being a cynical jerk?
Most people that join a gym, quit soon after. Many join several times before they either quit for good or make it a habit that they continue with. The number that actually stick with regular exercise is quite small and I would argue that the ones that adopt and stick with effective exercise is quite smaller again.

I think that number would increase with better education at earlier ages. I'd like to see proper instruction at the Junior High level, but that woun't happen.
Studies have shown if you can make it three years consistently in the gym and with fitness usually you are able to continue fitness for life and make it a part of you. There are stages to people there psyche (if I spelled that right) and their commitment level.

Some people will lift rocks logs kids tires etc to get a workout and some people if they can't get into a gym wont. Life is always problematic something always comes up but a true consistent gym goer someone who isn't going to quit doesn't make excuses why they can't go to the gym but always find a way to do what they believe is needed.

I always point to exrx.net for a majority of the stuff I learned also the comraderie is great I recommend this website for anyone starting out that wants to feel as if they are part of a group. That always makes a difference.

John

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by CorlessJohnJ » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:58 am

nygmen wrote:
RobertB wrote: but your point just seems like a general sort of "work out more, read less" well...

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying it doesn't matter all that much. I read A LOT about lifting, a lot. I know kids who make good progress and don't read half of what I do. I know kids that read twice as much as I do and make much less progress.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: you are either going to make it or you're not. Most won't. So, is doing it wrong, if you stick with it, even a bad thing? Is there even such thing as "doing it wrong"? (Outside of someone that blows out their shoudlers from only benching, etc etc etc.)

I'm not saying people shouldn't squat or any of that. I'm just saying I don't know if there is a "wrong" way, if you keep coming back... Because in the end, those that are going to achieve above average, are going to figure out what they need evenutally.
It's a lifestyle. If they get to the point that they are always going to be in shape or at least fit and into fitness for life it doesnt matter if they do keg stands daily for their shoulder work as long as you consistently do something that is what matters.

I know old people that just keep moving being fitness oriented that dont even use canes walk on their own and are just full of life. When I say old im referring to 85 yr olds...

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by Jungledoc » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:05 pm

So maybe the best thing we can tell newbies is "just do it", and "It Might As Well Be Fun". When they list their self-designed program, maybe our first question should be "do you enjoy doing this? If no, why not? If yes, what do you like about it?" Then, if they continue to show interest suggest ways to tweak their program, or other approaches that they might look at.

I can't really tell you what keeps me going back to the gym time after time. I know that when I reach some mile post on my lifting journey it is a really satisfying feeling. I don't win competitions. No one ever comments on how buff I look. No one ever assumes that I lift. But I wouldn't trade lifting for anything that I can think of. But it's not just success. When I have a bad day, miss reps, etc., I'm still anxious to get back. I guess it's endorphins or something. I don't know, I just don't know.

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by pdellorto » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:14 pm

All I can say it, it's easy to quit when you get poor results. Or when you don't know what you are doing.

So I can't really agree with the idea that it doesn't matter how you start. The fact that some of us have survived poor starts and continued one doesn't validate those poor starts. It shows that even a poor start won't kill the enthusiasm of some, but it doesn't mean how you start doesn't matter.

I think more people would stick to exercising if they got rewarded for doing so, because they were on a program that would continue to be effective after the first few days of work wore off. I remember Mark Rippetoe saying something to the effect of his squat 3x a week program was there because it could get results fast enough to get people to sign up to his gym - they'd see actual results and stick with it. I feel the same way. I've gotten clients and parents of clients who are doubtful of the training and worry about the cost until a few weeks in when results start to show. Compare that the people who do the machine circuit at the gym. Do we blame people for quitting in the face of hard work that gets them no results, and not realizing they are supposed to flounder around until the find the right way to train, and that they must fight the gym setup and gym rules to do it? Who has more fun, the person adding weight to the bar and losing inches from their waist, or the person screwing around with the stuff they think is supposed to work, but isn't right for their actual goals?

So I can't accept the basic premise. I know where you are coming from, but . . . yeah, I just disagree. Methods matter, and better methods would get better results, and encourage people to stick to it. More people will stick to exercise if it actually gets them the results promised, so the methods and programs really matter.

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:30 pm

I interpret Erick as saying that while it's certainly preferred to get off to an efficient start because you get better resutls towards your goal, whether or not someone sticks with a/any program is mostly predetermined by their will power

Peter, I see you hit on the idea of can we tilt that will power towards commitment if we show them methods that lead to goal target results, and/or teach them what a result is.

Presuming I have not butchered either of your ideas, I generally still side with Erick, Winners Win and Quitters Quit. A small fraction imo will stay on it longer with improved programming, but just as many will quit because "Deadlifting sucks and he said I really need to" Maybe, after 3 years of pressing, some of them would move to Deadlifting and understand.

In one sentence: Forums can try to teach (and confuse) but have immateerial impact on adherence.

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Re: Doing it Wrong

Post by pdellorto » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:03 pm

My argument is that it doesn't take as much willpower to stick to things that actually get you results. So what you do, and the results you get, matter for compliance.

Some people won't quit no matter what. Some people will quit no matter what.

But there is a middle ground of people who'll quit if it's clear they are banging against a brick wall, and bad methods are that brick wall.


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