Good article...

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jlmoss
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Good article...

Post by jlmoss » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:53 pm

What do you guys think about this article?

http://startingstrength.com/articles/ba ... llivan.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Jungledoc
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Re: Good article...

Post by Jungledoc » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:22 am

I think it's an excellent article! He says well, and more convincingly than I could say, what I believe about weight training. The scientific background material that he presents is as new to me as it probably is to most of you, but provides valuable understanding.

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Re: Good article...

Post by hoosegow » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:45 am

That was good cept the big words make Mongo's head hurt.

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Re: Good article...

Post by GTO » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:46 pm

Great article, yep some big words, but just confirms what a lot of us older lifters believe, I have said for years that weight training was the "fountain of youth". Its too bad more older people I know don't heed this. I wonder about the mental aspect of lifting and its positive effects on the brain,at least for me, it sure takes a lot of concentration and will power to do a very heavy squat or deadlift, knowing the effort it's going to take.I think lifting takes a lot more mental power then people who don't lift would ever realize.

Thanks for the article.

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Re: Good article...

Post by hoosegow » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:14 pm

Okay Doc, I've done some cogitation on this article. Is there a hormonal response difference from a newbie vs. an advanced lifter? You take a sixty year old off the street and put him on a training regime, he is going to get stronger. You assume he will have muscle growth, etc. Now take someone like TimD. He has been an elite athlete for years. Will he have the same postive hormonal response as a newb?

I know I'm going to screw this whole concept up, so stay with me. The number of people who work on the cardio late into their years far outweigh the number of people who work on their strength. Obviously at some point in time, you quit making gains and it becomes a struggle to maintain what you have (and I think I've reached that freaking point). If you are not getting stronger, is your body not producing all the hormones indicated in the article? An 80 year old newb on a strength training regime is going to get stronger where as a 50 year old elite lifter aint.


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stuward
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Re: Good article...

Post by stuward » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:46 pm

The 50 year old elite lifter will be stronger at 80 if he just works a little at maintaining it that the untrained 80 year old can ever hope of being.

It's my opinion that strength training is more important for middle aged and seniors than cardio. In fact, I think power training is most beneficial. I think power is hardest to hang onto, and strength is next. That's why it becomes more important to train as you get older. You may not be able to improve or even maintain but you can slow down the decline. You're also improving relative to your peers. By the time most realize they're too weak, it's too late to do anything about it.
Too often, the aging individual sees that he is getting weaker, and so lowers his expectations
and his efforts—and thereby grows weaker still. This is analogous to the cell cutting up its own DNA.
Once the psyche has surrendered to decline and death, it’s all over but the suffering
I think this is an important point. It underscores why you need to work harder as you get older.

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Re: Good article...

Post by hoosegow » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:22 pm

I'm not debating that stuward. The question is will the 80 yr old who is still an elite lifter have the same hormonal response, indicated by the article, as the 80 yr old who never lifted. I guess the same could be asked for myself. Though I don't consider myself elite, I have been lifting for a while, am I getting the same hormonal effects as another 40 yr old who just started?

To further the question, if so, then why after the increased neural efficiency gains will the newb gain strenght while the elite loses it?

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stuward
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Re: Good article...

Post by stuward » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:21 pm

I don't know anything about hormones, but as a thought experiment, if you consider progress not as in distance from the start, but in how close to genetic potential you can come, the advanced trainee continues to progress continually, in that he's always closing the gap on what his potential is. Of course as he ages, the potential decreases so it may look like he's backsliding but he's not relative to the potential. So I don't think you're losing anything from being more advanced, just that you have a shorter distance left to go.

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Re: Good article...

Post by Jungledoc » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:47 pm

Hoose, I honestly don't know the answer to your question. I wouldn't be too surprised to know that it had never been studied. It might be worth asking the author of this paper. He posts actively on the SS forum.

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Re: Good article...

Post by hoosegow » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:30 pm

So the question isn't totally idiotic, then? Maybe I'm going at this wrong. Maybe stu is onto something, but from a different perspective. I think we are all pre-programmed to die at a certain age (barring an accident or total mistreatment of your body). I'm going to die due to some sort of circulatory problem exacerbated by diabetes around the age of 75. The quality of life and the potential of extending that will be determined by what I do to fight it.

So we take stu's premise and expound that across the board to say that you have a hormonal or total "fitness profile" potential. You take an 80 year old who has never lifted and start him on a lifting program. He is going to show gains and he is going to improve his "fitness profile." Now take an 80 year old elite lifter - like TimD :lol: (I keep waiting for a response to this). Maybe he has already reached his genetic potential, even at that age, and his "fitness profile" is already maximized. In other words, his hormones are already at the highest level he can hope for. In other words, he body is already functioning at the highest level that he can achieve.

But then again, this is just the musing of a dumb ol farmer.

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Re: Good article...

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:48 am

I think you're right, overall. I don't think there are absolutes. In your example of Tim, he is nearer his genetic potential, so he can't make progress as fast as an newbie, but he will be able to still make progress in some way, barring adverse health events, etc.

I think about this stuff when I approach goal setting. Several times I have intended to state goals for the big lifts, including lifetime goals. But then I don't really know when I will hit my peak, and gains will slow even more. I'd hate to set a goal that would turn out to be totally unrealistic, but on the other hand, it would also be sad to reach a lifetime goal too soon, or too easily!

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Re: Good article...

Post by stuward » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:16 am

Here's a graph Mark Rippetoe did that sort of illustrates my point. IMO the potential line is not flat and should decline with age after some point. I don't think this is a single factor type of progression. Fitness has many components, all of which have to move forward in a balanced fashion in order for fitness to improve. At some point, just focusing on a specific type of performance can have negative consequences on other factors so the balance of the different factors has to be managed. Keith Norris has been talking lately about performance vs health. It's possible to improve in a specific athletic path to the detriment of health in general. That's why athletes become injured or retire young. So it's more complicated than the graph suggests.
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Re: Good article...

Post by stuward » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:26 am

Any time I think I'm too old for this stuff, I think about Jack Lalanne, Clarrence Bass, Art Devany, etc. Someone here was talking about information overload due to the internet recently. It is the internet that preserves the examples these guys have set.


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