Program for an old novice

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Jungledoc
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Program for an old novice

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:59 am

Ok, here's the jungle answer to SL and SS. I don't know as much as either Mehdi (and I don't really know what his qualifications are, other than what he says about himself on his own site) or Rip (whose qualifications I know well, and respect highly), but I have my own opinions and feelings, and I, well, agree with me about stuff.

Here are my prejudices that go into this program:
Old guys shouldn't try to both squat and DL on the same day.
Old guys probably shouldn't try to squat every workout. Twice a week may be too much.
Old guys can probably DL weekly until it gets heavy, then they may have to cut down to once in 10 to 14.

Here are my friends restraints
Limited time--doesn't want to lift more than about an hour, 3 times per week.
Wants to lift for general fitness and fat loss. His wife is a registered dietician, and I won't have any influence on his diet, but it's moderately calorie-reduced, probably not bad
Background is lots of bench and cardio. Only random curls, press, etc.

Here's what I'm thinking of suggesting to him:

Monday.......Wednesday.....Friday...........Monday.......Wednesday.....Friday
Squat............Deadlift..........Squat............Squat..........Dead...............Squat
Bench............Press..............Bench...........Press...........Bench..............Press
Chins.............Rows..............Chins...........Row.............Chins..............Row
Core..............Curls...............Lat Raises....Core............Curls...............Lat Raises

5x5, ramping to 3 work sets (a la SS) on "main" lifts. 3x8 or 3x10 on the accessories.
Progression linear initially. Maybe a light/heavy alternation later.
Chins will be multiple singles, until he can do more than 1 chin.

Comments?


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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by The_dog_mom » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:11 am

Jungledoc wrote:Here are my prejudices that go into this program:
Old guys shouldn't try to both squat and DL on the same day.
Old guys probably shouldn't try to squat daily. Twice a week may be too much.
Old guys can DL weekly until it gets heavy, then once in 10 to 14 days is probably OK
What about old girls?

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by nygmen » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:19 am

On the second Mon-Fri swap the pressing for the rowing.

Do the rowing second instead of always 3rd.

Or maybe, just switch them for the second "cycle" of 14 days.

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by stuward » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:23 am

Get a big rubber band and do mutiple reps of chins. There's no reason why chin ups need to be trained differently than the rest of the body.

The plan you have will likely work OK. I started with Madcow and it seemed to work for me but I came from machine work background. I had a pretty good leg press at the time. This guy is probably new to leg work. One cycle I liked once I went to 4 days/wk was Lower/upper/lower/upper and it was Back Squats+RDLs on Monday and Front Squats + deadlifts on Thursday. Now I just do Squats on Monday, Deadlifts on Thursday. Maybe that's why my progress has stopped. My point is that there is a stage, even for old guys, where squats and deadlifts are useful on the same day and you shouldn't exclude it just because it becomes harder later.

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:54 pm

I use Squats to warm up deadlifts. I basically work up to my working set for Squats, and do 3-5 reps, and then switch to a set of RDL, before adding poundage for final Deadlift warm ups. Anyway, I find doing some squatting, lighter volume, on Deadlift day makes sense still.

Your over all routine looks a lot like ones I've used, makes sense, since I get a lot of good advce from you.

Erick makes a point to switch order. I have mixed view on this. I think it can mess with your expectations, as you are more/less tired this week when you get to a movement. But, I doubt my rationale is a real blocker.

I don't like rowing on DL day. I also find that having less differnt days works better, for me. Helps me adjust to "what's next" That is not logical though with your plan sicne you do squat 2x and DL 1x, so you cant really alway Bench on Squat Day and Press on DL Day, for example.

I might do Split Leg Squat work + RDL on Fridays, on my way to designing a program that is 3 unique workouts, in one week, not 6 in two weeks.

Overall, it's great..but I"m a tweaker.


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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by KenDowns » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:41 pm

I'm the last guy to say not to write a program, but...

Have you considered just doing SL for a few weeks to "find the weights" that he can continue with? It also keeps things simple, as there are only 5 exercises to learn, and the early weeks make for great practice on form.

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:05 pm

Diana--"guys" in the most generic sense! Sexist language, no sexist intent.
nygmen--good thoughts. I'll switch them for the second week.
Stu--it might work fine for him to do both on the same day. It's partly my personal prejudice against it, and partly the length of workout issue.
Oscar--"less different days works better"--Someone has kidnapped Oscar (of 24 unique workout fame) and is posting in his place.
Ken--I listed my prejudices against SL and SS in my second paragraph.

One of my concerns is lack of unilateral work. I'll suggest that after he learns back squat well, he do a unilateral quad movement on alternating squat days.

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:16 pm

Jungledoc wrote:Oscar--"less different days works better"--Someone has kidnapped Oscar (of 24 unique workout fame) and is posting in his place.
Recent posts I've noted the problems with that scheme I was having. Have adjusted drastically.
Jungledoc wrote: One of my concerns is lack of unilateral work. I'll suggest that after he learns back squat well, he do a unilateral quad movement on alternating squat days.
I like. Also preserve back, another old person rule

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by The_dog_mom » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:02 pm

Boy do I hate posts that go into?????

I was just kidding. You probably don't know me well enough to know that stuff and even Oscars dog comments and age comments don’t really bother me. A PC forum would not be any fun now would it :binky:

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:27 pm

and if they did, I'd stop teasing.

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by KenDowns » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:19 pm

So this much looks standard, the foundation plus some stuff to keep it interesting:

1) Two main lifts/day, alternating squat+bench and dead+press.
2) Chins and rows as pulling
3) 3 accessories each done once/week
4) 5x5 ramped
5) linear progression

Couple of questions:

1) Are you treating rows as a 5x5 main or a 3x8 accessory? Personally I've done very well keeping it as a main as treated in SL, but that seems to be a minority opinion.

2) What are your starting weights? This was the real root of my mention of SL earlier, are you planning:

a) The SL empty bar approach
b) SS add weight first session till you slow down

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by nygmen » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:54 pm

Oscar_Actuary wrote: Erick makes a point to switch order. I have mixed view on this. I think it can mess with your expectations, as you are more/less tired this week when you get to a movement. But, I doubt my rationale is a real blocker.
You are thinking short term. Yeah, over the period fo a couple weeks, or months, you are right.

Over the course of a couple years, if you rotate your order appropriately it won't make a lick of difference what order you do them in. But if you always put something 3rd, then it will never be a #1 lift. You know what I'm saying?

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:51 pm

KenDowns wrote:1) Are you treating rows as a 5x5 main or a 3x8 accessory? Personally I've done very well keeping it as a main as treated in SL, but that seems to be a minority opinion.

2) What are your starting weights? This was the real root of my mention of SL earlier, are you planning:

a) The SL empty bar approach
b) SS add weight first session till you slow down
1, I don't care. I suspect Jim will treat them as accessory. In my own lifting I do them with 5/3/1 progression

2, Like SS, except lifts (bench) that he is already good at.

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:08 pm

nygmen wrote:You know what I'm saying?
I think
Over longer cycles it's silly to get bogged down in specific expectations for Lift C, following Lifts A then B. It's more beneficial to find out what you can do when fresh for Lift C occassionally. So many life factors will impact what you can do on a given day, swapping order is just one more way to find out how you respond. And you can never know your self too much when it comes to expectations and program design

maybe?

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Re: Program for an old novice

Post by nygmen » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:29 pm

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
nygmen wrote:You know what I'm saying?
I think
Over longer cycles it's silly to get bogged down in specific expectations for Lift C, following Lifts A then B.
Correct. To a degree as long as SOMETHING about that lift is getting better you are okay. Whether it be weight, reps, form or whatever.
It's more beneficial to find out what you can do when fresh for Lift C occasionally.
I guess, but that isn't why I would swap it specifically.
So many life factors will impact what you can do on a given day, swapping order is just one more way to find out how you respond.
I would change this statement to: So many life factors will impact what you can do on a given day, swapping order is just one more way to find progress.

Swapping order is a quick and insanely simple way to change things enough to illicit change and progress. And it keeps your emphasis revolving enough were it rounds out your improvement so that over time, you aren't lacking somewhere simply because you always put it behind a super intense other lift.

Now, you prob don't have to put leg curls first, ever, unless you are going to compete in a BB'ing contest and have crap hammie development, but you know what I mean by above.


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