Deadlift

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Jungledoc
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Re: Deadlift

Post by Jungledoc » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:40 am

And look at the Rippetoe video that Jason posted, then part 2 of the same talk, and Rip's other DL vids that will pop up on YouTube along with those. Those, plus an article that Cressy wrote on T Nation have been very helpful to me.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by jms » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:54 am

One more relevant video for you - Brett Contreras giving some info about DL vs squat back angles thing, along with some demonstrations, pulled from my bookmarks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDmWMrKT7U4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have no idea about the 105kg for your weight thing, especially if the guy pulls from the rack. It does make me curious though - maybe it says something about the average gym-goer? The guy who works there sees a lot of 90kg people at 6"2' that have trouble with that weight or something...
Last edited by jms on Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by Jungledoc » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:59 am


teafan
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Re: Deadlift

Post by teafan » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:32 am

To Jungledoc:

Thanks for the link - thats exactly how I "aim" to perform a deadlift. And it also seem's like I have nothing to worry about other than checking my form with someone who actually does the f****** lift! I'm sure I make mistakes (and will continue to work on them/correct them) but as long as I'm not following the guy behind the counters instructions then i'm heading in the right direction :cheers:

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Re: Deadlift

Post by nygmen » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:03 am

Yes, lets ignore someone who has made a ton of progress and has been lifting, successfully, without/around major injury, for TWO DECADES, because he doesn't pull from the floor, or lift over some arbitrary amount of weight....

Great plan.


I love it when people ask me for advice, then ignore it, because I'm not telling them what they want to here.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by nygmen » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:09 am

jms wrote:I have no idea about the 105kg for your weight thing, especially if the guy pulls from the rack. It does make me curious though - maybe it says something about the average gym-goer? The guy who works there sees a lot of 90kg people at 6"2' that have trouble with that weight or something...

Again, we have no idea if OP's form is $h1t or not. We also don't know if the guy working at the gym, with 2 decades of experience, who has made significant visual progress, wasn't just complimenting him.

Because if some kid was pulling and their back looked like a canoe, seemed perplexed by my advice, I would tell them to lower the weight too.

Then again, if I watched some skinny guy (90kg @ over 6' is skinny, no offense to anyone) put 100lbs on his pull, and now repping BW+ on it, I would encourage him by saying, "That is good amount of weight for your size, keep it up."

Whole lot of assumptions in this thread, when we know very very very little detail about the situation beyond conjuncture, perspective and opinion.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by nygmen » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:15 am

teafan wrote: The guy is a beast, been training for 20 years - but you wont ever see him doing an olympic lift or using the squat rack for it's major purpose. In fact, he doesnt really go "heavy" on anything. I respect him and all, I just don't trust his advice for a lot of things.

Let me rephrase your post to try an illustrate why this sounds crazy to me:

I'm a CPA. A partner at my firm, has an 9 figure bank account, started out with one client 25 years ago and grew his firm into a 6mil+ a year revenue maker, doesn't do things exactly like my college text books said too. In fact he doesn't even deal with the credits and debits of the work anymore. I respect him and all, I'm just not going to take his advice for how to be successful.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by teafan » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:14 am

Hmm, I think somehow this has turned from me asking "Does this description of a deadlift sound anything like a deadlift you guys have done/heard about?" into something else entirely.

At no point during my discussion with the big man did he pick up on any pointer that could relate to "bad form" on a deadlift. His comments related to me NOT hyperextending at the top and NOT keeping my spine absolutely vertical. He was even horrified when my hips moved, for example. You can read into this comment that he MAY have meant my arms were way out front or my back MAY resemble a king-prawn (shrimp) or that I MAY be a man beast because I can lift slightly over bodyweight on a deadlift. He DID NOT say any of these things and did NOT demonstrate them during his "example lift". He did a pole dance - with an emply bar in his hand.

What would you think if someone did this to you as an example of a "perfect" deadlift? I'm pretty sure you'd go through the same thought process as I have!

If I asked Arnold Schwartzenegger to comment on my Bicep Curl and in his reply example he did a reverse crab with a barbell in his hands - I'd say; "you know, Arnie - you are one of my hero's and I will respect you and defend you till my dying days... but respectfully, I don't think we have the same lift in mind"

Nygmen, I guess my description of the events skimmed over some vital details and my over-arching point was missed. But it seems to me that you are assuming that a well developed guy MUST know how to do a deadlift even though his example and description betrays the fact.
What if you asked nine bodybuilders what they thought of YOUR form on a deadlift and nine of them said "perfect" but one said it was Horse$hit and then preceeded to do the most ridiculous deadlift you've ever seen... but just so happened to look like Dorian Yates? Or even asking one powerlifter and one bodybuilder, both equally respected/decorated, and the powerlifter gives you the thumbs up and the bodybuilder the thumbs down?

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Re: Deadlift

Post by nygmen » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:55 am

teafan wrote:Hmm, I think somehow this has turned from me asking "Does this description of a deadlift sound anything like a deadlift you guys have done/heard about?" into something else entirely.
You are missing my point. Maybe I'm not communicating it correctly.

My point is you asked for form advice, which means you are unsure of your form. That is the largest issue here, NOT what the other guy said/did/explained/should be listened to. He doesn't really matter at all. Not one bit. What matters is you and your form.

Why I continue to rally against ignoring his comments is because he has been doing this for a long, long time and has made good progress. There seems to be an air of arrogance with people on the internet, that because they watch videos and read articles they are ahead of the curve. The truth of the matter is, someone who has 20 years experience shouldn't be dismissed. Even if his form advice isn't what you wanted to hear or was off. There is a reason he was saying what he was saying people could learn a thing or two from listening. Asking him to clarify his position is going to teach you 10x more than ignoring what he has to say, right wrong or indifferent.

So yeah the orginal topic was "lets bash this bodybuilders deadlift form advice." I'm trying to change it to "lets make some progress."
At no point during my discussion with the big man did he pick up on any pointer that could relate to "bad form" on a deadlift. His comments related to me NOT hyperextending at the top and NOT keeping my spine absolutely vertical.
And instead of asking him wtf he is talking about, you are deciding to ignore everything he is saying.

I've learned to not trust words on a screen when it comes to form descriptions. Most people think their form is spot on when it isn't. And in this instance, I don't know how it is even physically possible for this guy, who is developed to contort his body in the manor you are describing so I'm skeptical of your description in the first place.
He was even horrified when my hips moved, for example. ... He DID NOT say any of these things and did NOT demonstrate them during his "example lift". He did a pole dance - with an emply bar in his hand.
Again, I need a video, because I don't understand how you would get down to an empty bar with a straight back and not moving your hips... So this leads me to the "this thread is useless if all we are going to do is bash some guy's form advice" thought process.
What would you think if someone did this to you as an example of a "perfect" deadlift? I'm pretty sure you'd go through the same thought process as I have!
I doubt it.
If I asked Arnold Schwartzenegger to comment on my Bicep Curl and in his reply example he did a reverse crab with a barbell in his hands - I'd say; "you know, Arnie - you are one of my hero's and I will respect you and defend you till my dying days... but respectfully, I don't think we have the same lift in mind"

Nygmen, I guess my description of the events skimmed over some vital details and my over-arching point was missed. But it seems to me that you are assuming that a well developed guy MUST know how to do a deadlift even though his example and description betrays the fact.
No, I'm insisting that someone that developed and that long in the game MUST be able to teach you a thing or two. And that a bunch of people on the internet, without full detail of the conversation, demonstration, and just a description full of conjecture, assuming the guy is an idiot and should be ignored is foolish.

You want to know what I would say to Arnold? "Hey, why did you show me the reverse crab? And why do you do it that way?"
What if you asked nine bodybuilders what they thought of YOUR form on a deadlift and nine of them said "perfect" but one said it was Horse$hit and then preceeded to do the most ridiculous deadlift you've ever seen... but just so happened to look like Dorian Yates?
Analogy doesn't apply to the situation, but, I would ask Yates why he did it his way. And you assume "ridiculous" = ineffective, which it doesn't.
Or even asking one powerlifter and one bodybuilder, both equally respected/decorated, and the powerlifter gives you the thumbs up and the bodybuilder the thumbs down?
I would ask the BB'er why, and what he would change and why. Then I would asses my goals with the deadlift, and move on appropriately.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by teafan » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:38 am

Again, I need a video, because I don't understand how you would get down to an empty bar with a straight back and not moving your hips... So this leads me to the "this thread is useless if all we are going to do is bash some guy's form advice" thought process.
The guy didn't "get down" to an empty bar, he picked it up from the bars of the squat rack. He took the bar down to a bit below knee height using only his legs and then returned, hyperextending his back at the top (to about 20 degrees). No $hit, his back was entirely vertical and his hips/butt barely moved. All the "lifting" movement came from his legs. His back only got involved when he hyperextended.

No video/discussion/evidence I've seen of a deadlift has ever looked anything like this one and every ounce of the feedback I was offered was based on elements of the lift that were alien to me. I should have asked for an explanation but when the example offered is so utterly different to the exercise understood... it kind of threw me off. Big time.

Funny thing is, he usually has a Ronnie Jackson DVD on the TV and this particular DVD features Ronnie DLing. His deadlift looked absolutely nothing like Ronnies, put it that way.
My point is you asked for form advice, which means you are unsure of your form. That is the largest issue here, NOT what the other guy said/did/explained/should be listened to. He doesn't really matter at all. Not one bit. What matters is you and your form.
I asked the guy for an observation of my form, just to make sure that I was heading in the right direction (I train alone... makes sense to check). I wasnt really concerned about it until this point... felt it was safe and followed all the key pointers for a safe lift. Sure, my form likely isnt perfect and there will be areas I need to improve but when an observer recommends a lift that resembles nothing you've seen before... you don't quite know what to think.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by CorlessJohnJ » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:34 pm

I say have said mostrous jacked guy make a video of you deadlifting. You then return the favor and record him. You tell him you are on a forum on a weight training website and you are having a discussion regarding your form and also the workout he was doing.

See what he says ang go from there.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by nygmen » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:12 pm

teafan wrote: The guy didn't "get down" to an empty bar, he picked it up from the bars of the squat rack. He took the bar down to a bit below knee height using only his legs and then returned, hyperextending his back at the top (to about 20 degrees). No $hit, his back was entirely vertical and his hips/butt barely moved. All the "lifting" movement came from his legs. His back only got involved when he hyperextended.

No video/discussion/evidence I've seen of a deadlift has ever looked anything like this one
Well, you have successful had me get up, in my office and try to replicate what you are saying.

I can't get my hands past my knees without my hips and ass moving. I don't see how what you are describing is even physically possible. Are you talking to Chuck Norris here and he brought the earth up with his shoes? :lol:
but when an observer recommends a lift that resembles nothing you've seen before... you don't quite know what to think.

And that is why I'm saying what I'm saying. Like 13,000 people wrote this guy off as someone you don't listen to, and that is a foolish mistake. Rather than pick the guys brain and find out why he is coming out of left field, you are just ignoring him...

Look, this wasn't a slight at you, or anyone. I'm just trying to give you the perspective of someone in their 30s who wished he asked more questions of those that were successful while i his 20s.

But fine, you win, ignore him for the reasons you already stated, I mean he doesn't lift "heavy" anyway... All that matters is you are making the most progress you can, and if ignoring him helps you do that, than so be it.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:17 pm

Teafan,

I presume you mean his butt is moving up and down in the vertical plane, but no hip hinge, no movement in the horizontal plane?

But mostly, yeah, best to spend 98% of your energy on your own goals and technique critiques.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by teafan » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:27 am

Well, you have successful had me get up, in my office and try to replicate what you are saying. I can't get my hands past my knees without my hips and ass moving. I don't see how what you are describing is even physically possible.
^^ This! I cannot replicate his movement in any way shape or form - in hindsight, it was almost magical.
I presume you mean his butt is moving up and down in the vertical plane, but no hip hinge, no movement in the horizontal plane?
Exactly - no hip hinge whatsoever. If my back didn’t imitate his plumb-straight-vertical spine position, his eyes popped out of his head as if my spine was gonna pop out.

I have researched and thought about this near endlessly since it happened - and according to Mark Riptoe he was simply trying to make my technique a replica of his own. I am not of his dimensions and I'm probably a half foot taller. My technique was entirely safe - tight abs, chest up, bar over the ball of my feet, scapula straight over the bar etc etc.

I kind of think he was trying to make the lift entirely about the legs - when actually it is a back move. I absolutely think his lift was safe and sensible, for what it was, but it certainly wasn’t a deadlift as me, you or anyone here know it.

I kind of get the impression that he views the deadlift as dangerous and no magazine, video, web forum or anything is going to change his mind. Come to think of it - I don't think I’ve ever seen the guy bend over; perhaps he has a fused spine :sur:

I'm gonna talk to that other guy I mentioned and feel this out a bit before re-approaching and trying to establish his reasoning/methodology.

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Re: Deadlift

Post by CorlessJohnJ » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:01 am

I could see what he was doing as a dead lift variation targeting the quads. With out rounding the back or bending over that is completely lower body....i bet he bangs his knees all day long doing it too. I recently deadlited so hard i tore all the calouses off my hands that my friend is an accomplishment :).

BTW Doing something differently isn't always a bad thing sometimes different variations can make you see gains you haven't see before

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