Found this workout what do you think?

Ask or answer questions, discuss and express your views

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, parth, stuward

User avatar
The_dog_mom
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by The_dog_mom » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:31 pm

How is your knee position on the squat? Knees straight in line with your feet? How wide a stance do you use? If fairly wide, try bringing it in a little.
I have had several people who do lots of lifts look at my squat and all think I do a good job except for the depth. I do a lot of stretching every day. Box squats feel better. Even walking will bother my groin now and then.


User avatar
stuward
moderator
moderator
Posts: 6648
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Halifax, NS

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by stuward » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:33 pm

http://stronglifts.com/groin-pulls-why- ... -treat-it/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You probably have an imbalance or flexibility issue. The article above has a few solutions. Stretching the hip external rotators may help.
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/HipExtern ... tator.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More ideas:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... eper_squat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
KenDowns
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:48 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by KenDowns » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:40 pm

Getting back to the original question, I'd add my voice to those who say to either:

1) Stick with Stronglifts until you're sure you've gotten all it can give you, and if so

2) Pick something like 5/3/1 to continue your strength goals.

Then fit these other things you enjoy into one of those two.

User avatar
The_dog_mom
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by The_dog_mom » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:39 am

I found this link and would like to know what you think about what he says.
http://www.illpumpyouup.com/articles/de ... -squat.htm

What I am thinking of is backing off the squat in terms of getting to the goal. It is my right leg that I have issues with and I can see myself pulling to the left when I squat. There is an old video that someone on this board saw the same thing.

I will use the box / bench and lower the weight to #45 and do high reps for my squat. I will continue with the lunges despite my hatred for the exercise. I will also continue to stretch.

I want to keep the complex and tabata workout on my "off days" because I still have the goal of losing a few more pounds and they actually help me with my lifts.
I don't do SL as perscribed but I do all of the main lifts adding weight when and if I can.

I like to listen to my body I do much better when I go in with that attitude than go in with a set goal of adding a certain amount of weight for a certain amount of reps.

TravisF
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:53 am

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by TravisF » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:08 am

The_dog_mom wrote:I like to listen to my body I do much better when I go in with that attitude than go in with a set goal of adding a certain amount of weight for a certain amount of reps.
I just wanted to comment on this a little....

I am somewhat the same way in this regard. Sometimes I feel like it holds me back though. I believe the mind has a little too much power over your body at times. I think a lot of times my body is quite capable of getting extra reps or adding weight but my mind keeps telling me I'm not ready. It's when I totally ignore what my mind says and just get to it that I make the most progress or overcome some limit I thought I had.

So be careful listening to your body too much....... (obviously your gonna want to listen to all the pains and such)

Good luck getting to your goals!

Travis


User avatar
The_dog_mom
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by The_dog_mom » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:41 am

I tried a box squat today with my legs only shoulder width apart. No pain. The dilemma becomes getting the stability to go deep (which the box squat solves) without having a wide stance.
This seems to do the trick as I was able to do 117 easy.

I agree the mind has too much control and what I mean by listening to my body is more about tuning out my mind saying no way and feeling the moment of the lift and knowing in my heart I can add a couple more pounds.

KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by KPj » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:54 am

stuward wrote:http://stronglifts.com/groin-pulls-why- ... -treat-it/

You probably have an imbalance or flexibility issue. The article above has a few solutions. Stretching the hip external rotators may help.
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/HipExtern ... tator.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More ideas:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... eper_squat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
These are great recommendations and I would second them. The only thing I would be weary is the external rotator stretch. In quite a general sense this is one area where women and men should be viewed differently with regards to training. Generally, women have a lot more hip internal rotation than men and a lot of females will have a posture that is almost "stuck" in internal rotation (this is when the knees are rotated inwards, you see it in loads of females but males, not so much, a lot of the time they will have the opposite going on, hence the value in increasing internal rotation). So, if your standing posture shows an internal rotation of the hip (knees pointing towards each other), stretching further in this direction may add to the problem.

That's not the case with all women, just "most". Ballet dancers, for example, tend to show the opposite (they spend most of their life with the glutes fired forward and the hips turned out). I would however prescribe that stretch if one side was more restricted than the other, though.

I've actually found that very few women need much static stretching at all. Quite often in movements that they "look" restricted, you can then break it down into segments on the floor and see a full ROM. In that case you have a stability problem. Men on the other hand tend to by tight as a drum AND unstable.

DM, how deep can you squat without weight and, do you have the same issues when squatting with just body weight?

What you have going on actually sounds very similar to an ongoing battle i've had myself. First I was shifting more on to the left side as noted by training partners (A huge emphasise on gripping the floor with the feet and spreading it apart as you squat can help this). Eventually my hip/groin started niggling away. Tightness first, niggling pain second. Niggling became "hmm, think I have something going on here". Meat head took over and eventually I tore an adductor. Worth saying I was doing a lot of wide stance squatting AND sumo deadlifts at the time, which was a bit silly.

Anyway, I had blatant instability in the opposite hip in comparison, which is what I think was causing the shift.

Moving your stance in can help avoid pain. I was able to squat close stance quite soon after the tear but it took ages to take it out wider again.

Going back to the links Stuward posted, if there's one thing that seems to be becoming more evident in my experience it's that you should be able to squat deep before you squat heavy. This could be key if you struggle to go deep with just b/w.

Single leg deadlift variations may "call you out" on some side to side discrepancies that could be encouraging the weight shift, too.

KPj

User avatar
The_dog_mom
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by The_dog_mom » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:15 am

Going back to the links Stuward posted, if there's one thing that seems to be becoming more evident in my experience it's that you should be able to squat deep before you squat heavy. This could be key if you struggle to go deep with just b/w.
Getting a low squat has been an ongoing battle form day one. At 54 if I spend all of my time battling the deep squat I may never get to lift. The pain is there no matter what but is intensified the more weight I add. I am posting an old video of when I started lifting, my depth is about the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TVRTLq ... ture=feedu

EDIT: This is an old video I have ditched the shoes and the towel.

User avatar
stuward
moderator
moderator
Posts: 6648
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Halifax, NS

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by stuward » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:45 am

Try using this in your warmup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQhWfUB53Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You could also try this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-MMnltV1h8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by TimD » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:30 pm

The_dog_mom wrote:I found this link and would like to know what you think about what he says.
http://www.illpumpyouup.com/articles/de ... -squat.htm.
I agree with what he's saying. I don't feel at all that it will hurt you to concentrate on one or the other for a cycle period. My suggestion would be that for assistance exercises, your's sound OK, but more of a focus on unilateral quad dominant work, and doing some lighter squat form practice would work. Reps don't need to be high for form practice, in fact, would probably be better to keep them lower to concentrate on correct form.Because there is such a crossover from Deads to Squats and vice/versa, you might even find that when you change out to Squats in the next cycle, it has gone up.Just my experience. When I was shipping out, I used to concentrate primarily on semi Sumo DL's rather than squats, because of no squat racks on the ship, and trying to squat when the ship is rocking and rolling isn't all that great for safety reasons, and my squat never really suffered much.

Also, I watched the two form video's Stu posted. Great stuff. The intro to Gray Cook's video on the TGU about the body is one piece should be required intro's to anyone starting out.
Tim

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by Jungledoc » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:51 pm

And wide stance is not the holy grail! Finding a stance width that is right for you is more important. If that is not-too-wide, fine.

KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by KPj » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:45 am

The_dog_mom wrote:
Going back to the links Stuward posted, if there's one thing that seems to be becoming more evident in my experience it's that you should be able to squat deep before you squat heavy. This could be key if you struggle to go deep with just b/w.
Getting a low squat has been an ongoing battle form day one. At 54 if I spend all of my time battling the deep squat I may never get to lift. The pain is there no matter what but is intensified the more weight I add. I am posting an old video of when I started lifting, my depth is about the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TVRTLq ... ture=feedu

EDIT: This is an old video I have ditched the shoes and the towel.
I would go with what Stuward suggested, especially "squat to stand" - it's an amazing movement for RE building your squat! You are learning to squat from the bottom up, the way you learned when you were a baby/toddler :grin:

Also, a bout of box squatting in place of free squatting is a "no brainer" for me in your case. Your video shows a forward weight shift plus, you said it doesn't hurt. So, you'll stay out of pain plus, you'll learn how to sit back. Working on this plus your squat depth in general (with b/w) could be the answer, and I would expect your free squats to be stronger when you switched back to them.

For what it's worth, I almost always start people with Goblet squats, and usually to a box, too. Could be a worth a shout. I stick with it until we either find the heaviest DB to be too light, or it's harder work holding the DB up there than it is to actually squat with it, then i'll look at using a bar.

Also, I would start thinking about adding some single leg work (don't over complicate it, though, stick with the changes already recommended first). Although putting some lunge and single leg variations in as a warm up (along with squat to stand) could be a good primer (and one of the many things I use clients warm ups for).

Quick comments on form - Make sure your feet are a mirror image of each other when you squat. Your right foot points out more than the left. It could be related to the weight shift - not necessarily the "cause" of the weight shift but, an indication of what may be going on.

I actually have a gut feeling your right hip may be more externally rotated the left. It's wrong to speculate (but I will anyway). After seeing that, I would actually like to see you try the stretch that stuward linked to that I just wrote a few paragraphs saying why NOT to lol. In that case, I have a feeling your right hip won't go in as far as your left, in which case I would do it on the right side to try and even it out. Also worth checking ankle ROM to see if that could be contributing to the difference in sides. Apologies if i'm over whelming you but my mind is in over drive now.

If you keep your eye on your right foot from the very start of the video, it actually kicks out as you take steps to get into position. Your feet start off more symmetrical (although right foot still out a little more) but then the right one shifts out a little more as you squat down.

I would bet you have instability in that right hip, too, when compared to the left. Infact due to your gender it's highly likely you have no real need to stretch anything and just "appear" tight due to that instability. Unilateral leg and core work would really help you out I think, plus a focus on squat form/sitting back.

KPj

User avatar
The_dog_mom
Associate Member
Associate Member
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by The_dog_mom » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:50 am

Thanks everyone for the advice!

KPG thanks for the long reply.

I have tried some of the stretch routines. The one that you touch your toes then squat with arms up I can’t do unless I am on my tippy toes not heels. I noticed over the weekend if I squat down to do anything I have a very hard time getting up without assistance. Some hesitation may be due to anticipating groin pain. Someone even made the comment to me "I thought you worked out". did not even have a reply because I am rather week getting up from a squat position.

KPG: I think you may be right. I have added unilateral leg work for the last two workouts. I am very unstable unless I have both feet on the ground. Here is what I am doing for my uni work. I have a low bench and put one foot on the bench (top of foot) so my butt is facing the bench. then I hold the pole and do some single leg squats. I try to decrease my reliance on the pole as I squat. I also added step ups.

One thing i noticed over the last couple of workouts is when I do my box squat I feel my hamstring working much harder than my quad in both legs. I think that is a bit odd considering I have been keeping my feet closer together. My quads are probably weaker than they should be because I have a hard time with wall sits. I hate doing things I am not good at:-(

I added 5 more pounds to the squat today so I am up to 127. I had a spot just in case but didn't need it. They encouraged me to try my 150 and see if I can hit that for one rep on my next workout. The box squats are working very well and I think I keep my back straighter. I will try and video later in the week so you can see.

On another note my upper body seems to be slacking off a bit so I am doing some complex routines that focus on the upper body rather than trying to push hard on the OH press. DL still my best lift.

KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Re: Found this workout what do you think?

Post by KPj » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:09 am

The_dog_mom wrote:The one that you touch your toes then squat with arms up I can’t do unless I am on my tippy toes not heels. I noticed over the weekend if I squat down to do anything I have a very hard time getting up without assistance. Some hesitation may be due to anticipating groin pain. Someone even made the comment to me "I thought you worked out". did not even have a reply because I am rather week getting up from a squat position.
That's ok. Put some small weight discs under your heels and go from there. Get good at it from there, really "pull" yourself onto your heels and pull the chest up/back. When you get better at it like this, take away the discs (or whatever you use to elevate the heels), and start over. You'll be amazed at how quickly you improve if you do it frequently.

The movement issues you describe are quite common. It's really just that - "movement quality". I would be looking at a good dynamic warm up for you. This is where you address your movement issues. I basically write 2 concurrent programs for people I train - Their warm up, and their training sessions. The warm up is where we address movement quality and the training session is primarily to create a training effect. Of course, they do tie into each other as movement quality, for me, dictates exercise selection. So, as movement improves, the options for exercises I can use increase. The actual training session helps build the stability you may lack in movement, too, so they both feed off each other, really.

I use it to introduce new lifts, too. For example I think single leg deadlifts are invaluable. However, they have a BIG learning curve for most people (try one and you'll see what I mean). So, i'll have people master things like reaching single leg deadlifts or "bowler squats" before I introduce a single leg DL movement into the actual session. I make it sound a lot more complicated than it is. Basically what I'm saying is "master movements with just bodyweight first, THEN add load".
The_dog_mom wrote: KPG: I think you may be right. I have added unilateral leg work for the last two workouts. I am very unstable unless I have both feet on the ground. Here is what I am doing for my uni work. I have a low bench and put one foot on the bench (top of foot) so my butt is facing the bench. then I hold the pole and do some single leg squats. I try to decrease my reliance on the pole as I squat. I also added step ups.
Good! However what I would suggest is just using step ups for now. Make sure you're doing them strictly - Drive off the heel, keep your chest up, don't let your torso shoot forward, keep it upright. Also, don't free fall on the way down, control it. No need to be super slow just "controlled" - think about trying not to make any noise at all on the way down. You may need to start with quite a low box in order to do it the way I just described, which is fine. Look towards increasing the height of the box vs adding weight. If you can't increase the height of the box (due to form) then stay at that height and by all means, add weight however, strive to get to a higher box. Ideally you will get to a level where you're doing them with your knee in line with your hip or a little higher, but this may take some time.

In the meantime, a long with squat to stand as part of your warm up, add the Static Lunge (also called Split Squats). Get them perfect in your warm up before adding them to your workout. Weight on heel, torso upright - think about a door being right in front of your face when you do them i.e. if you lean forward you will get a sore nose. Squeeze the glute of the rear leg.

So, step ups in work out, master static lunges in warm up. Once you master the static lunge you can look at more dynamic lunge variations (the "reverse lunge", "Dynamic lunge", "Bulgarian Split Squats", etc). From there you go to single leg DL variations and lunge variations from a deficit. This will take time, too, but I just wanted to explain how you progress through the movements - this is basically how you get more "athletic".
The_dog_mom wrote: One thing i noticed over the last couple of workouts is when I do my box squat I feel my hamstring working much harder than my quad in both legs. I think that is a bit odd considering I have been keeping my feet closer together. My quads are probably weaker than they should be because I have a hard time with wall sits. I hate doing things I am not good at:-(
This is a GOOD thing. When you can't sit "back" it's really just hamstring and glute weakness in that movement. A Box Squat is kind of like a giant leg curl. You need to dig the heels in and "curl" your legs whilst driving the chest up to get off the box. You may have the hamstring strength their already (I say this because your DL is better), your just not putting it to good use when you squat. Box Squats will teach you how to do this.

Embrace the things you're not "good" at because these are generally the things you need to do to achieve your goals. Don't think of it as things you're "not good" at, though. They are things that should be even better than they are already. Just because something could be improved doesn't mean it's not good. Strive to better yourself but don't put yourself down. Sounds silly but it makes a difference.

Finally - Well done on the Squat PR!! Keep moving forward :cheers:

KPj


Post Reply