Universal statements of truth.

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Jungledoc
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Universal statements of truth.

Post by Jungledoc » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:22 pm

Yeah, I know that's impossible. But here's what I propose to do. I'm going to make several statements that I believe to be true, and that I think most if not all knowledgeable people would agree with. That gives me an out: if you disagree, I'll just say that you aren't knowledgeable enough to know that I know it all. :roll:

1. For beginning resistance trainers, the first task is to learn the basic movements (I won't commit right now to what I think those are) with good form, good ROM, and a consistent bar path.

2. For beginning resistance trainers, the second early task is to gain strength in the basic movements.

3. If a beginning resistance trainer wants to include a limited amount of lifting to emphasize the growth of body parts that he/she perceives to be of insufficient size, that probably will not negatively impact over-all progress. (That is to say, if you want to do a few curls or lat raises at the end of your workout, it won't hurt anything.)

4. Hypertrophy and strength are not mutually exclusive, and are in fact highly correlated.

5. The "rule" that low weight/high reps produces hypertrophy and high weight/low reps produces strength is a gross over simplification.

Do you all agree with these? If not, why not?

Are there other statements of universal truth that you would put forward for the consideration of this august body? Not just applications of these, or details, but statements of principle.
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by robt-aus » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:28 pm

adequate rest and appropriate nutrition are highly correlated with improved performance

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by Jungledoc » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:38 pm

robt-aus wrote:adequate rest and appropriate nutrition are highly correlated with improved performance
Good. Who could argue with that?

Oh. Now that I ask that question, I can think of a few who might, but we won't worry about them.
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by robertscott » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:04 pm

dammit, I've got so much to do but this forum keeps piquing my interest!

I'll be back tomorrow to add to this thread, but in the meantime I would like to add:

6. All newbs should do Starting Strength, regardless of their goals.

Just kidding! I'm such a troll.

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by stuward » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:09 pm

Basic movements according to Dan John:
Push
Pull
Squat
Hinge
Carry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aIv5uAWRPo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:52 pm

- You will easily be fooled into believing what you are doing is best because everything works at first

- You won't realize the importance of consuming sufficient protein until you plateau (because you'll undersestimate how much of your "gains" were actually just psycological as you worked your way past heretofore limits)

- Don't sweat the details until you are consistently doing something

- Beyond the "basic universal truths" quit fretting over everyone elses opinions. After you've passed that "everything works" period, understand your goals and what works to get you towards them most effectively


perhaps these aren't universal. Well they are, but maye not what you are looking for.
I agree with all above so far too, but 4 and 5 are too similar to be given seperate emphasis, imo

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by robt-aus » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:39 pm

weakest movements or lifts represent largest potential gains
anthropometry (relationships of dimensions of body parts) will influence lift proficiency

a bit obvious, but also uncontroversial.

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by robt-aus » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:30 pm

Jungledoc wrote:
robt-aus wrote:adequate rest and appropriate nutrition are highly correlated with improved performance
Good. Who could argue with that?

Oh. Now that I ask that question, I can think of a few who might, but we won't worry about them.
They'd be reasonable if they said "what about consistent training?". There's also the genetically or attitudinally gifted. Lucky them.

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by robt-aus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:53 am

Good topic, in my humble opinion.
Jungledoc wrote: 1. For beginning resistance trainers, the first task is to learn the basic movements (I won't commit right now to what I think those are) with good form, good ROM, and a consistent bar path.
Within a structured workout, agreed.
Jungledoc wrote: 2. For beginning resistance trainers, the second early task is to gain strength in the basic movements.
As above.
Jungledoc wrote: 3. If a beginning resistance trainer wants to include a limited amount of lifting to emphasize the growth of body parts that he/she perceives to be of insufficient size, that probably will not negatively impact over-all progress. (That is to say, if you want to do a few curls or lat raises at the end of your workout, it won't hurt anything.)
Unsure. Haven't tried it or read enough about it to form a useful opinion.
Jungledoc wrote: 4. Hypertrophy and strength are not mutually exclusive, and are in fact highly correlated.
Agreed.
Jungledoc wrote: 5. The "rule" that low weight/high reps produces hypertrophy and high weight/low reps produces strength is a gross over simplification.
Agreed - to this statement. [ http://exrx.net/ExInfo/FitnessComponent ... hor4780138" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ] indicates quite a few training objectives and a less controversial statement could include generally accepted (there's the problem: "generally accepted") ranges for each fitness component (ie: 1-3 strength, 3-6 power, 6-12 hypertrophy, 12-15 muscular endurance, 15-25 cardio/vasc enduro, 25+ ?)

Clarification - I'd write "does not apply in all cases" in place of "gross over simplification", but I can use too many words.

We should also be able to state something about the number of sets - more is not necessarily better for the beginning trainee.
Last edited by robt-aus on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:25 am

- you strength gains will stop when your progression stops. You can progress several ways, some qualitative

- nothing kills progress like an injury

- you grow outside the gym

- perfect is the enemy of the good

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:47 am

robt-aus wrote:Agreed - to this statement. [ http://exrx.net/ExInfo/FitnessComponent ... hor4780138" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ] indicates quite a few training objectives and a less controversial statement could include generally accepted (there's the problem: "generally accepted") ranges for each fitness component (ie: 1-3 strength, 3-6 power, 6-12 hypertrophy, 12-15 muscular endurance, 15-25 cardio/vasc enduro, 25+ ?)
Yeah, that's the "rule" in a little more complex form. Who says? What's the evidence for this? I'm not entirely sure that it's even true.
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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by Dub » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:03 am

The more you talk to other lifters, read and experiment, the more shady some basic rules become. i.e. low/high rep comparison, rep ranges and muscle hyperthrophy in usual. Core work and spinal flexion have also been a topic for quite some time. Warming up, stretching, soft tissue work. Also recovery after working out and supercompensation. Many of these subjects have and had their universal rules. But nowadays, there isn't really enough evidence or research to clearly pick one side and diminish the other. Nor is there just one truth to most of these problems either.
This goes to many fields of nutrition as well.
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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by stuward » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:07 am

"there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong." - H.L. Mencken
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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by robertscott » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:38 am

robt-aus wrote:weakest movements or lifts represent largest potential gains
anthropometry (relationships of dimensions of body parts) will influence lift proficiency

a bit obvious, but also uncontroversial.
I have to take slight issue with this here. Yes, any lift that you've neglected should be worked on, and when you start to work on it you'll improve faster than on lifts you've been doing for years.

But, a lift can be weak for several reasons. If it is the case that the lift is contraindicated for an individual, working on it will not produce the most gains, just the most injury.

I do agree with your statement for the most part, but just thought I would add that little caveat.

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Re: Universal statements of truth.

Post by robt-aus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:11 pm

Jungledoc wrote:
robt-aus wrote:Agreed - to this statement. [ http://exrx.net/ExInfo/FitnessComponent ... hor4780138" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ] indicates quite a few training objectives and a less controversial statement could include generally accepted (there's the problem: "generally accepted") ranges for each fitness component (ie: 1-3 strength, 3-6 power, 6-12 hypertrophy, 12-15 muscular endurance, 15-25 cardio/vasc enduro, 25+ ?)
Yeah, that's the "rule" in a little more complex form. Who says? What's the evidence for this? I'm not entirely sure that it's even true.
There's a nice phrase at exrx.net about the inverse proportionality of intensity, duration and frequency ( http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/LowV ... ining.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). Another statement for consideration.

in terms of the challenge i can't pretend to anything more than personal experience on this one, which isn't a suitable case study for defence here. Cochrane Doesn't touch it so i'm ok to leave it there in terms of the discussion.

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