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Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:57 am
by Crow
Deleted...

I didn`t want to increase the level of confusion...

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:45 am
by Jungledoc
That nicely increases the confusion level.

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:56 am
by HealthyJay
Wow! Thanks a lot Jungledoc! I think you are right, i didn't fully know what i was asking and what was important to know beyond that.

So if i am lifting to gain strength mainly and size secondary, should i be sticking with 5 or less reps per set? And does it matter how long my breaks are inbetween?

Here's my pull routine:
Cable lat pulldowns
Deadlift
Barbell shrug
Seated leg curl
Dumbbell bent over row
Delt barbell upright row
Bicep curls
Then abs

So if i am understanding you right, i can drop verything but the deadlift, lat pulldowns, and a row exercise and be good for the day?

This is great help and i really appreciate it!

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:22 am
by Jungledoc
Last things first--you've got it.

Your routine--use those other lifts from time to time as accessories, or to "bring up" a body part that you want bigger. Chinups/pullups are better than pulldowns, IMO.

The traditional wisdom is low rep (1-5) for strength mod-high (8-12) for size, but like a lot of traditional wisdom, that is only partly true. Either range can give you strength and hypertrophy. I think you'll want to mix it up. The simplest way would be to do low rep for your main compound lift, 8-12 for your accessories, and that's what lots of people do. However, if you do your main lifts low-rep all the time, you sort of stagnate. I have noticed several times that I made some gains by going to a high-volume approach for a few weeks. I did 3 sets of 12 for a few weeks, then went back to my beloved low-rep lifting, and made better gains for the next few weeks than I had been making. That's consistent with the experience of others as well. Conversely, I suspect that doing your accessory lifts with heavier loads and lower reps once in a while helps. If you get stronger, you can move more weight than before when you go back to high-rep.

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:48 pm
by HealthyJay
So if i do a few accessory lifts also, would i do them right after the compound exercise for that muscle group? Like if i am doing incline dumbbell press to go with a barbell bench press, should i do the incline press right after? Or do a different muscle goup inbetween the compound and auxillary exercises to let those muscles rest to be able to lift more when it comes time for the auxillaty exercise?

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:09 pm
by Jungledoc
Either way's fine. Try and decide.

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:55 pm
by Dub
HealthyJay wrote: So i am doing too may exercises?
I'm not saying that there's too many exercises, but yeah, you could possibly cut some. The problem is that your workouts are very long. And the sad truth is, the further the exercise goes from the start, the less effect it will have. That's might lead to imbalances and gain differences in some important areas. I personally think workouts shouldn't frequently last over an hour. It's okay sometimes, but you should be able to keep most of your workouts within an hour.
Should i be doing more push exercises for legs? I work my hamstrings on a pull day.
I'm saying that you have huge amount of exercises for that small elbow extensor (triceps), but only half from that for your huge knee extensor/hip flexor (quads). There is some imbalance, and much overloading on certain muscles.
I get hip cramps sometimes and thought this would help. Also it's one of the muscles to exercise under this website's "push" section.
Hip cramps? Where in the hip? Working on hip abduction is alrigth if you have some issues around the area, but that should be on the warm-up with just a couple of sets or so. Working the glute with glute bridges or hip thrusts for example would work way better. Glutes are one of the most important muscles on your hip, so don't just use them for abduction.

Sorry but i'm still new to this... Is low density and mixed frequency bad? Also should i be shooting for 5 reps for ALL exercises? Or just for one or two thrown in?.
Density means the combination of the total work you do, and the total time your workout/exercise lasts. Frequency refers to the amount of rest you have between working some bodyparts. With mixed frequency I'm saying that in a week, you have huge volume and workload for those upper body pressing muscles, but a relative small (half, again) for lower body pressing muscles.

With low density I mean that you are working those sets quite slowly. 8-9 exercises could be organized to be done in a much more dense way, thus decreasing the workout time, and possibly getting more muscle growth and fat loss.

I think you could have a main exercise (or two - one for lower and one for upper body), and go heavier on those (around 5 reps and lower). Then have some smaller and higher volume exercises that you do already.

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:00 pm
by Oscar_Actuary
HealthyJay wrote:So if i do a few accessory lifts also, would i do them right after the compound exercise for that muscle group? Like if i am doing incline dumbbell press to go with a barbell bench press, should i do the incline press right after? Or do a different muscle goup inbetween the compound and auxillary exercises to let those muscles rest to be able to lift more when it comes time for the auxillaty exercise?
imo,
do it the way it makes most senst logistically.
I pair BB Row w/ OH Press because I can go back and forth since I have two barbells to use.
Then on another Upper Day, I pair Bench Press with Cable Pulldowns because I can sit on the bench to do the pull downs. It's a matter of convenience, and over the period of a week it doesn't matter. Most here pair upper vertical push with upper vertical pull etc, traditionally; whereas, I mix vertical/horizontal pull/push.

I like saving time by using the rest of one muscle for the opportunity to work another. That will dicatate order for me, to the extent I will always do the "Main" exercsie of the day in the first group/pair

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:33 pm
by HealthyJay
Another question i just thought of (figured i could post it here since it is somewhat related instead of posting an entirely new thread)...

After how long should someone change up their workout routine so they don't plateau as much? I know it's not for a number of months, but i wasn't sure what was about average?

And how much variance is good enough? Would switching from barbbell bench press to dumbbell bench press be enough? Maybe switching from only weight training to more plyometrics? Etc?

I am still a ways off from having to change up my routine because of plateauing, but i had the thought on my mind and wanted to get yall's opinions.

Thanks!

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:42 pm
by stuward
Change your program when it no longer works for you.

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:49 pm
by HealthyJay
stuward wrote:Change your program when it no longer works for you.
Yea i figures as much... Any eta on an average timeframe when most people plateau? One month? 8 months? Etc? And how much/what kind of change is best? Total wotkout revamp? Or just mix in a few new exercises?

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:41 am
by Dub
HealthyJay wrote:
stuward wrote:Change your program when it no longer works for you.
Yea i figures as much... Any eta on an average timeframe when most people plateau? One month? 8 months? Etc? And how much/what kind of change is best? Total wotkout revamp? Or just mix in a few new exercises?
It is recommended to keep your program the same for atleast 12 weeks to see how it works. The best indicator to change is to plateau. However, you can do the same program for a long time. Say, like 531 or similar. I did it for 6 months, didn't plateau once.

I like to change accessorial exercises every 2-3 weeks for variety and for the sake I will never get bored. The main lifts I change less often. But elite lifters usually rotate main exercises every 2 to 3 weeks as well, because they migth adapt to it (especially with a program like westside). But that is not a concern now. You can try it that way as well, the important part is to keep the movement pattern in the same range. (like Close grip or Incline Bench press).

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:40 pm
by Jungledoc
Go by feel.

As you go on it gets harder and harder to distinguish "plateau" from "it takes a long time to make much progress". I'd say that changing your rep-set scheme is probably more important than changing the exercise.

There aren't really hard and fast rules. You need to try things and gain experience over time.

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:30 pm
by HealthyJay
Yea i figured it wouldn't be as easy as a blinking "PLATEAU HAS BEEN REACHED" neon sign, but everything said did give me a better understanding of when would be reasonable to expect it.

@Jungledoc: what do you mean by "changing your rep-set scheme"?

Re: Training schedule confusion

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:32 am
by Jungledoc
How many reps and how many sets you are doing. If you have been doing 3x8 you might want to change to 5x2. If you've been doing 3x5 try 2x15 for a while. Etc.