NO Leg Strength
Let me reiterate, the cause of "too much back" is weak legs.
The first step to correcting that is to increase their leg strength.
No amount of cueing to "push the through the floor" is going to cure weak legs. That a dead end street.
McLaughlin's ResearchI would rather they used "too much legs" with a good back position than "driving with the back like they're supposed to according to mclaughin" and a poor back position.
One of the keys to success is finding out what great individuals do and those who are unsuccessful do.
You then emulate successful individuals and avoid the pit falls of the unsuccessful.
McLaughlin's research simply points out what makes great Conventional Deadlifters and how to obtain some of their success.
You discount McLaughlin's research and some research by the National Strength and Conditioning Association on Conventional Deadlifting. Evidently, you know more than they do.
Yes. However, you method is incorrect. You are reinforcing less that perfect technique.As you've quoted many times yourself, "perfect practice makes perfect".
What you want to do is teach them to perform a one two punch. In other word, lead with the lower back and hamstrings, then drive with the legs.
You method is push with the legs then...
Re-read Contreras article.I don't coach a rounded back lift.
Let me also add that the back will round with heavy max loads. It not something you may teach but something that going to happen.
Kenny Croxdale wrote: The reason someone uses "too much" back is because have super strong lower back and weak legs.
No matter how much they think or try to employ more leg drive it's NOT going to happen with weak legs.
You can perform "Leg Drive" Deadlifts all day long with light to modereate loads. However, in due or die deadlifts you survival mechanism kicks in to insure success at all cost.
I am not an advocate of heavy deadlift training sessions nor is Contreras.I don't have clients perform "do or die" deadlifts,
As you may remember, I stopped performing deadlift in my training session back in 1998, 15 years ago.
In doing so, my deadlift went from 540 lbs/245 kg to 617 lbs/280 kg.
McLaughlin's an advocate of having training sessions work up to 85% plus of 1RM in a training cycle for singles. The singles are for technique, not to strength the deadlift.
Thus, Contreras, McLaughlin and I do not advocate the "do or die" in a training session.
Meet conditions are a different topic.
She has one strong back but her technique need some work.apart from the one who done the competition with me, who I made a training partner rather than a client. This is her, actually - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtuK08FQTsI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think that's her 140kg. Easy. When she started with me she could pull a messy 60KG. Pushing the floor doesn't seem to have done much harm, but it was one of the initial technique issues we worked on.
Outside powerlifting, not any 1RM make sense.Even then, her do or die lift wasn't in the gym, it was in competition (even then we played it safe - that pull was a scottish a record). Outside of powerlifting, I don't see any value in testing your true 1RM.
Bare in mind Bobs g/f is not a powerlifter.
Again, "perfect practice makes perfect".
But that is not what you are teaching.
Agreed. Once technique falls apart, STOP. I have pushed this for years.If technique breaks down at 100KG, but they can lift 130KG with horrible form, then I won't let them go over 100KG. In my opinion, by doing this, you are targeting your weak links by limiting load to what you lift with good technique. This, along with good assistance exercises do build your weak links - in this case the legs and hips - is the approach I prefer to take.
Pulling 100 kg isn't mean to increase strength. Using 100 kg should be used to develop technique.
Auxiliary exericses are where you build strength.
Bell has stated they helped his deadlift. Contreras has posted them in his article, "Deadlift 5 Plates Like A Champion". I have pushed them for years. You really need to rethink this.How can you possibly utilise your new found leg pressing strength if you pull with hiked up hips and a rounded back? There's no available leg drive. You've basically skipped that part of the ROM.Kenny Croxdale wrote: Prescribed Leg ONLY Movements
1) Leg Press. I am not a fan of the Leg Press one of it greatest beneifts is that has been shown increase the deadlift by strengthening the legs.
Contreras goes into this in his "Deadlift 5 Plate Like Champion" article.
Perform a Quater Leg Press.
Gene Bell (a great deadlifter) in an Powerlifting USA interview, over 20 yeara ago, was ask how much the Leg Press helped his Squat. Bell replied it increased my deadlift but not my squat.
The Leg Press replicates the leg drive in the hip position. The girl in the video has very little leg drive.
Back-Leg-Back is the firing order in the Conventional Deadlift. The girl in the video is all back drive, Back-Back-Back.
The difference is that you are cueing them to drive with the legs first.Then you recommend the leg press, which is exactly the action I want people to do to get more leg drive...
I am advocating they strength the legs for the second part of the "one-two" punch, a synergistic effect. The sum is greater than it's parts, 2 + 2 = 5.
A lifter with weak legs and a strong back can focus on driving with the legs until hell freezes over. However, it's not going to happen with heavy load if their legs are weak.I still want them to be "all back", I just don't want them to be "no legs". I want them to be "all back and legs". If there's no legs i'll encourage more legs until it's fixed. They don't focus on it forever.
An old cowboys saying is, "You can spit in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first.'
Your cueing amount to wiching for stronger leg drive from weak legs. Wishing, focusing, crying, screaming, etc won't get it.
Strengthen the legs, then focus.
But don't use false cues. Don't tell them to dive with the legs when you really want a "one-two" push.
If you go back and google me, you will find that I always adovocate to STOP the movement once the technique falls apart.On top of these recommendations, would you just allow the lifter to pull with crap technique when they were actually deadlifting? Or would they stop deadlifting until they strengthened the weak link? Or are you saying, as I think Peter was trying to ask, that you encourage people to lift with a rounded back?Kenny Croxdale wrote: 2) Quarter Squats. This movement emulates the quater squat starting drive position in a deadlift, breaking it off the floor.
3) Belt Squats. This movement allows you take the lower back out of the equation and completely overload the legs. Perform them from a quarter squat "Deadlift" position.
4) Quarter Step Ups. This is just another variation of Quater Squats, Quater Belt Squats and the Leg Press.
5) Belt Good Mornings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXNlbNS3WnU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This overload the hamstrings and glutes, taking the lower back out of the equation.
You don't need a machine. You need a loading pin, belt and boxes to stand on. [/color]
Use auxiliary exercise to strengthen the weak link.
Contreras provide an interesting perspective that some rounding of the back may be natural.
Did you read the article?
Also, I have stated in multiple posts on this site and others that during a heavy deadlift, some rounding is going to occur. Kuc, Bolton, Gant, Anello, Kazmaier, etc rounded on max loads.
As Contreras notes in his article, some rounding appears to be a natural and advantageous method. However, there are some parameters. See "Good vs. Bad Rounded-Back Deadlifting" in the article.
This is too cofusing for me to comment on, mutes.I disagree with this. If you seen someone deadlift - lets say me and the client are in mute and you can't hear us - and, when it gets heavy the client hikes the hips up (before anything else), rounds the back and pulls that way. Then, I give them a few coaching cues and you see them lift the same weight with perfect form and make it look lighter. Wouldn't you assume I told the correct thing?Kenny Croxdale wrote: Cueing someone with the wrong information amount to telling someone NO when you mean YES.
Post the video.I have this specific cue on video, before (showing technique break down), during (me filming and coaching) and will have the "after" video soon. In the "during" video you blatantly see the weight look easier with better form when the changes are made. In the after video you're going to see around 50lbs more get lifted with better form (he's already doubles 20lbs more with perfect form). The technique issues we have been working on are starting with the hips lower, pushing the floor away, and "dragging the bar up the legs". Push the floor away was the initial focus.
Kenny Croxdale wrote: Research shows learning is more effective when you ONLY give them ONE cue to think about.[/color]
That's one coaching cue during the rep. I teach the set up before I coach the lift which is part of what I was recommending. Makes life easier/simpler. When I coach the lift it's one cue at a time.
I am on board with that.
Kenny Croxdale wrote: Cueing an individual with the incorrect information is counter productive.
What you want is a boxing "One-Two" combination. The back and hamstring fire, then the hip drive with the legs kick in.
How do you tell a client to fire the back and hamstrings then bring the hips and legs in?
There was a book written on this years ago that related to this, Touch Training For Strength.
Why not just cue them in whatever way makes them lift with good technique?
The cueing is wrong.
Won't good technique give us the correct muscle-firing-sequence?
Only if they fall into it head first.
If it doesn't, does it even matter? Isn't the end goal in a coaching session to achieve good or better technique? If not, then what's the point in the coach? Personally I don't have an EMG machine to hook up to clients, and I don't put all my trust in EMG data anyway. I just want a good, strong, and especially safe lift.
It does matter. Your cueing them incorrectly and chose to do so. That is your choice.
I provide information. What you decide to do with it is up to you.
The problem is lifter then perpetuates the myth.
You want to use EMG data along with empirical data.
Kenny Croxdale wrote: Your "push the floor away" is programming them to think leg first then..., which make it confusining for the lifter.
Most people I deal with have no idea about muscle-firing-sequencing. I would probably pass it out in shock if a client retorted my cue with, "but, isn't that incorrect muscle-firing sequence? Aren't the back and hamstrings supposed to kick in first, THEN the hips?". If the client knows this, they probably don't need me...
Evidently, you are no as familiar withthe muscle firing sequence, either.
Kenny Croxdale wrote: However, NO one should be programmed think "push the floor away" in a deadlift.
The most effective method of insuring "too much" back is not used is very simple.
Strength the leg/hip drive and it will happen.
We'll most likely need to agree to disagree. When I have that video made i'll be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts, though.
Thanks, enjoying the discussion.
Discussing this with you has been like beating my head against a brick wall.
The beauty of beating you head against a brick wall is how gooood it feels when you stop.
So, I am stopping now. Wow, I feel better already.
We be done with this topic!!!