KPj wrote:Also, recently I made a good effort to increase good morning strength and got no carryover to my squat. However, my technique needed/needs some work so I may not of tapped into the carryover from good mornings yet (or they just don't benefit me, time will tell).
Are you aware there are at least three major variations of the goodmorning? I wasn't when I first started doing them. I do neutral back goodmornings which are supposed to have excelent carry over to the squat. Westsiders and Bill Star practice rounded back goodmornings, as well as what they call arched back goodmornings, which are kinda like a quarter or half version of a neutral back goodmorning.
I know that guys swear by the round back goodmornings, but I just can't get myself to do it. It doesn't feel right, and I'm concerned for my back health.
KPj wrote:Strengthen the squat, you almost always strengthen the legs which in turn strengthens your weak link in the deadlift.
That's a great point, I never thought of it that way, but it makes total sense now that you mention it.
KPj wrote:You can train a lift or build a lift. I like both. Some great gyms do one, some great gyms do the other. You'll find as many legendary or world class powerlifters who take either approach. Some of the best powerlifters of all time just stick to the basics and use basic linear progression. Point is there's loads of ways to do it and most of them work if you give it a fair shot. Sometimes I think the change rather than the method is what sparks progress but, it's hard to ever really know for sure.
Yes, there is no majic routine. When one stops working switch to another, if what your doing is working, don't change it. I'm still not totaly convinced of this no deadlift training, but I'm giving it a try it because if it works for me, I've found a plateau buster, if it doesn't, well I know one routine to avoid.
KPj wrote:Back to the recovery issue with deadlifts. Westside are often used as an example of lifters who don't train heavy deadlifts directly (from what i understand, there's no one size fits all westside program, it's individual, but with similar principles for each lifter).
Westside technically "build" all of the lifts (btw, I love westside barbell, but this may sound like criticism - it's not, it's just observations). They barely even free squat or do competition bench with straight bars and straight weight, when they do it tends to be for speed. They mostly Box Squat. The Box Squat, when done correctly, is in my mind just a deficit sumo deadlift with a bar on your back. It's kind of like a good morning in the sense that you never really know what lift it builds the most - squat or deadlift? Anyway, the shin angle of a box squat makes it very hip dominant. The pause echoes a the dead stop in a deadlift. So, I think you "eat into" your deadlift training if you smash box squats.
Also, worth noting that westside are a lot more known for their squatters (and benches) than deadlifters. This could easily be coincidence but for me, it's no surprise that the lift they have most success in is the one that's trained the most. I'm sure there was an article in the last year or 2 where Louie claimed they were deadlifting more now.
The thing to keep in mind with Westside is that their training is geared towards, well, gear. This is not to say that their pattern of training won't work for general fitness, it worked for me for a while, but I substituted pause squats for box squats, and didn't use any chains or bands, as those are specifically for training geared lifters.
But as with all of this, your mileage may vary. I don't' know any one who uses westside that doesn't compete in gear, but that doesn't mean that there aren't those out there using it with great success.
KPj wrote:Now, you can't smash squat AND bench AND deadlift with everything you've got all at the same time. You can as a beginner but the stronger you get the more recovery becomes an issue and you need to start juggling the lifts.
Yes, the practice in the gym must be in the 80-90% range to avoid burning out.
KPj wrote:I don't agree you can't recover from training the deadlift specifically. I think it needs programmed properly and performed properly. I know too many big deadlifters who just squat bench and deadlift every week. I'm actually getting the chance to train with a powerlifter who came 13th in his class at the IPF worlds. Squats, benches, and deadlifts every week (they use linear progression, too). His coach who will be there and has coached powerlifters for decades has won something like 5 worlds competitions.
One issue as I see it with deadlift training is simply that it's a lot less forgiving. You can allow a deadlift to get VERY messy and still make the rep. If you break down like that in a squat you will miss the lift. What happens in a squat when your back rounds or your hips shoot up before the shoulders? You're pretty much screwed if you're close to or above 1RM. In deadlift, though, you can just keep banging out reps.
A neutral spine deadlift is far easier to recover from than a rounded back deadlift. A neutral spine deadlift actually "builds" a rounded back deadlift but the opposite isn't true. You always have 20-ish KG on "reserve" if you let yourself round over due to the leverage advantage. So you can build your competition-rounded-back-deadlift by training a neutral spine deadlift and straight away you make it much easier to recover from. Main problem with this is ego.
Another ego problem is testing vs training. I think people test lifts far too often. Even once a month in my opinion is way too much. "Train" the lift in the gym but, "test" it either in a scheduled test day or on the platform. Testing doesn't make you stronger it just marks your progress or lack there of. How many lifters let their ego get the better of them and test practically every week? And they let technique get messy, AND they're smashing squats and bench on other training days in the week.
Absolutely, I've only been training with weights for 4 years, going on 5, and really only could claim to know what I'm doing for about the last two years. Even then, I effectively tested my strength at the end of every cycle. Knowing what I know now, I'm amazed how much progress I made with this.
KPj wrote:And how do we program sets/reps? Right now I train 4 deadlift variations every week, for example. Conventional, sumo, and suitcase deadlifts on the same day. Single leg deadlifts on another day. On squat day we squat and front squat, too. Bench day has bench then incline bench. Technically i'm training 2 variations of the big lifts every week, plus assistance exercises.
Right now I'm alternating squat one week, goodmornings the next on mondays. These come after bench and pullups, in the same workout. All for 6 sets of 3, or as close to that as I can get. When I accomplish 6 sets of 3 reps, with good form, and not going to failure on any set, I up the weight. Friday I do the same with Press, was doing it with deadlifts, but now with powercleans, and dips. Wednesday is isometrics. I credit Isometrics for making up for a lot of my training sins. I use isometrics to hit the squat and bench in bottom, middle, and lockout, and the deadlift just above the knees. I also hold as much weight as I can in my hands from the rack as if I was going to press it. I call these Rack Holds. I used to not be able to breath after cleaning a weight to my chest. This fixed that quick. Now my shoulders, chest and back hardly notice the weight when I clean it since my Rack Holds are dang near 100lbs over my clean weight.
KPj wrote:I'm not arguing against no-deadlift-deadlift-training. I think it's definitely worth trying and I think in this case it'll work. I'm just debating/thinking out loud regarding the reasons for it working.
A year ago I would have thought this was utter bunk and skipped past it. Now I'm smart enough to know when I see something that might work for me. I'll definitely keep this forum posted on my opinion of how this training works for me. Time will tell if this works for me, and just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for some one else, it only means that it could work, and if your stuck, might be worth trying.