Selling our soul

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Matt Z
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Post by Matt Z » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:43 pm

PS) I think the McCain's campaign is a great illustration of the difficulties faced by moderate candidates in either party. In order to get past the republican primary McCain had to pander to right-wing voters, but in doing so he lost many swing voters.


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Post by Ironman » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:50 am

Matt Z wrote:I think both partys have moved away from the center and I don't see this changing any time soon. For example, I fully expect to see one or more new gun control initiatives introduced in congress in the near future.

Meanwhile, I disagree that the republican party needs to become more moderate to survive (although I would like to see a more moderate party). They need only wait for the public to becomes frustrated with the democrats. That's what keeps the pendulum swinging. Change is constant, but new ideas are few and far between.
There you go believing republicans again. The only democrats that want to crack down on guns are the ones from the northeast. The republicans would have you believe all the democrats are like that. The thing is there are lots of conservative democrats in the house and senate. Pretty much all the democrats from red or purple states and even a couple blue states are very close to center. Not one single solitary thing will get through without those guys. In fact in the senate you are going to need a republican or 2 to break a philibuster, not to mention all the conservative democrats.

This is a democrat majority, not a not a green party majority.

Not to mention Obama seems fairly moderate on the issue. Did you see his reaction to the DC gun ban being overturned? He affirmed his support for the 2nd amendment and stated that he just wanted to close the gun show loophole and that sort of thing. He is actually quite rational and does not buy into liberal dogma such as gun bans.

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Post by TimD » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:46 am

Ironman is right about the Senate. Our Senator, Jim Webb, is a bluedog Democrat, having shifted over becauseof the hijacking of the republican pary by the right wing lunatic fringe, and supports guns and the right to bear them big tie. There are a lot of democrat Senators (blue dogs) like him that would never go for major gun control.
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Post by Matt Z » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:21 pm

Obama supported the DC ban before it was overturned. I'm pretty sure he also supported Ted Kenedy's "Armor Piercing" ammunition ban, which would have banned most hunting ammunition.

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Post by Matt Z » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:22 pm

Obama also opposes all right-to-carry laws.


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Post by ironmaiden708 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:08 pm

Who gives a $h1t about any freakin gun laws right now. On the scale of priorities from the top being rated at 100 down to lowest priority 1. Gun laws would be about a 3, a step above laws reguarding tighter regulations on marijuana. How about the ECONOMY? How about enstating laws that protect us from speculators driving prices up on oil?

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Post by Ironman » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:36 am

It could be he has realized most people don't like that and he doesn't have the votes anyway so he has given up on that to focus on other things.

There really isn't enough support in Congress to change any gun laws one way or the other. You could maybe close the gun show loop hole. But that's about it. red/purple state democrats support gun rights.

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Post by Matt Z » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:28 pm

"Who gives a $h1t about any freakin gun laws right now." - ironmaiden708

So we're all supposed to trade our freedoms for economic recovery. That's how the Nazis rose to power in Germany durring the great depression.

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Post by Matt Z » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:31 pm

"It could be he has realized most people don't like that and he doesn't have the votes anyway so he has given up on that to focus on other things." - Ironman

That's possible. However it's also possible he downplayed his views and voting record in order to get elected.

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Post by Matt Z » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:34 pm

"There really isn't enough support in Congress to change any gun laws one way or the other. You could maybe close the gun show loop hole. But that's about it. red/purple state democrats support gun rights." - Ironman

You may be right, but I don't share your confidence. Besides I never said they'de succeed, I said they'de try. At the very least, this will waste time and distract from more pressing concerns like the economy.
Last edited by Matt Z on Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Proper Knob » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:02 pm

I really don't understand you Americans and your fascination with guns. I'm from the UK. As far as i understand it, a gun is an instrument of death, it's sole purpose is to kill. Simple as.

Matt, in another thread you passionately called abortion 'infiantcide', on the one hand you're pro-life yet the supression of gun laws is a threat to your civil liberties.

How can you be pro-life and yet want everybody to be able to carry guns, and yet guns take away life. It just seems a mass contradiction.

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Post by Matt Z » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:25 pm

A gun is simply a tool. It can be used for legitimate purposes (hunting, target shooting, self defense, etc.), or misused by a criminal, just as I could beat someone to death with a hammer or use it to build a shed.

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Post by Proper Knob » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:40 pm

Matt Z wrote:A gun is simply a tool. It can be used for legitimate purposes (hunting, target shooting, self defense, etc.), or misused by a criminal, just as I could beat someone to death with a hammer.
A gun is simply a tool, to kill something else. Hunting is killing, target practise is training to be a better killer, self defence is i presume killing/wounding someone who wants to kill/wound you.

A hammer can be used to kill someone so could a mobile phone, but they have other uses. A guns only function is to kill.

But you still haven't expalained, or i haven't understood, how you can be pro-life and also defend the right for people to carry guns. I'm genuinely not trying to start an argument here, i just don't understand your veiw point, and probably a large percentage of Americans view point when it comes to guns.

Hunting i can fully understand. If someone passes the appropriate tests and is qualified and has a licence to go hunting, i don't see anything wrong with that. But for everybody to have right to carry a weapon? I think that's crazy.

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Post by Matt Z » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:59 pm

I never said I was a pacifist. I believe that self defense is a basic human right, and guns are, among other things, a tool of self defense.

I don't have any moral objections to killing someone who means to kill me or someone I care about. A fetus however is helpless, and not yet capable of raping, maiming or killing anyone.

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Post by Matt Z » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:01 pm

PS) Target shooting can be a sport and/or a fun recreation activity in it's own right. It doesn't have to be practice for something else.


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