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Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:59 am
by Ironman
lol 600mg a week. A typical beginning steroid cycle is test E 500mg a week. So yea I bet they did see some pretty sweet results. While they're at it, wait until the blood levels peak, and then have the guys run dbol or anadrol with it for 4 weeks. Grandpa will be heeeuge!!!! lol

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:51 am
by stuward
Why are you interested? Is this not something your medical friends might have a better handle on? It's one thing for young healthy people to cycle through some performance enhancing substances on occation, it's something else for treating elderly that probably have other issues, mostly in the areas of cardiovascular system, prostate, lipid metabolism, and insulin sensitivity.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:28 am
by Paperclip
I found that the result mentioned in the second link (article) interesting:
METHODS
Subjects were randomized to Group 1 (testosterone plus exercise), Group 2 (testosterone plus no exercise), Group 3 (placebo plus exercise), and Group 4 (placebo plus no exercise).

RESULTS
Serum testosterone increased by a mean of 10.0 +/- 1.9, 6.6 +/- 1.6, 0.52 +/- 0.6, and 0.5 +/- 0.6 nmol/l in Groups 1, 2, 3, and 4 respectively.
So exercise alone apparently doesn't raise your T level, except in acute cases (right after performing an exercise or workout). But this seemingly doesn't apply if you exercise and take testosterone at the same time as seen from Group 1's and 2's results comparison. Am I reading this correctly? Also it wasn't mentioned when they took the final T measurement.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:42 am
by stuward
I think diet has the biggest impact on maintaining testosterone levels naturally. Most of the issues come from the conventional wisdom which calls for low fat, low cholesterol, low calorie, low red meat, etc or an excess of crap food. The type of exercise you do would also impact levels but it's probably a long term subtle support rather than an acute shot of juice. Sleep and stress are obviously important too.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:09 am
by Paperclip
That article that doc and nightfall posted is pretty "disheartening" for hypertrophy oriented individuals I imagine because elevating T level and doing nothing makes you bigger than by exercising alone. Though the strength increase is the reverse, I guess because of the neural aspect. I now know why people want to take AAS.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:43 pm
by NightFaLL
Paperclip wrote:That article that doc and nightfall posted is pretty "disheartening" for hypertrophy oriented individuals I imagine because elevating T level and doing nothing makes you bigger than by exercising alone. Though the strength increase is the reverse, I guess because of the neural aspect. I now know why people want to take AAS.
Don't let it be disheartening - if it makes a difference, I'm one of the biggest guys in my gym and I'm a natural. (Lean, too) And I know quite a few guys who are 'on da juice' who don't make near the progress I have.

The only point the article makes is that steroids help quite a bit - it doesn't change the fact that you can get jacked/tan without them. ;)

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:43 pm
by Paperclip
NightFaLL wrote: Don't let it be disheartening - if it makes a difference, I'm one of the biggest guys in my gym and I'm a natural. (Lean, too) And I know quite a few guys who are 'on da juice' who don't make near the progress I have.

The only point the article makes is that steroids help quite a bit - it doesn't change the fact that you can get jacked/tan without them. ;)
I don't know if that's considered as "quite a bit", it's pretty significant I'd say. But I did forget to take into account that this test only lasted for 3 months. I guess if they made the test to be 1 year long or more I'd be surprised if the juiced but doing nothing guys still get bigger than the naturals.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:37 am
by Matt Z
I would imagine someone taking testosterone and not exercising would soon reach a plateau. From there, they would have to increase the dosage, add other performance enhancers or start working out to keep making gains.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:44 am
by Paperclip
Matt Z wrote:I would imagine someone taking testosterone and not exercising would soon reach a plateau.
And the reverse is also true, isn't it? Though maybe not that "soon".

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:46 am
by Matt Z
"That article that doc and nightfall posted is pretty "disheartening" for hypertrophy oriented individuals I imagine because elevating T level and doing nothing makes you bigger than by exercising alone. Though the strength increase is the reverse, I guess because of the neural aspect." - Paperclip

Beginner gains are largly due to neural adaptation. Meanwhile, the duration of the study was fairly short. That may explain why the natural group lagged behind.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:49 am
by Matt Z
"And the reverse is also true, isn't it? Though maybe not that "soon"." - Paperclip

True. But exercise is progressive. One can easily increase the "dosage" by adding weight, sets, reps, etc. You can also change exercises, add exercises or change your program when you stop making gains.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:54 am
by Matt Z
I'd also be interested to see if the natural post-workout testosterone dump is higher among experienced lifters, or younger novice lifters compared to older novice lifters.

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:50 am
by Kenny Croxdale
Jungledoc wrote:The important question is how often they occur in actual usage, and how severe are they when they occur.
Jungledoc,

Practical Application

I suspect that I am either the only one on this board to have used anabolics over an extended period 1977-1987) of time or the only one to admit it.

That means put me in a competely different Knowledge catagory.

Potentially Serious Adverse Effects

Generally speaking, there are a few minors side effects. I've never seen any serious adverse side effects.

"Show Me The Bodies?"

If there were a plethora of serious side effects, you'd find a pile of bodies. However, there are no bodies.

Implicated 101 death's in 1998 and 12,815 hospital visits in 1998!

That drug is asprin! "Seriods For Health"
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... for_health" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And people worry the "potential serious adverse effets" of anabolic steriods. UNBELIEVABLE.

It's assumed that the potential for significant harm would increase with longer periods of use, but again, this needs to be determined by actual experience.
Cycling

Cycling on and off them is the key to long term usuage. It is no different than a Periodization Weight Training Program.

high-dose testosterone used over a period of 6 months...there were no significant SEs in that study.
Length Of Cycle

NO one should use anabolic steriods for 6 months non-stop.

Kenny Croxdale

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:02 am
by Kenny Croxdale
Ironman wrote:lol 600mg a week. A typical beginning steroid cycle is test E 500mg a week. So yea I bet they did see some pretty sweet results. While they're at it, wait until the blood levels peak, and then have the guys run dbol or anadrol with it for 4 weeks. Grandpa will be heeeuge!!!! lol
Minimum Recommended Dosage

As Ironman points out, 400-600 mg a week is "A Typical beginner steriod cycle..."

That means you will see some results.

Less Than 400 mg A Week.

That means with dosages of less than 400 mg a week, you won't see much.

Hormone Replacement Therapy

The standard protocol is 200 mg of testosterone every 7-10 days. That 200 mg is just to get your testosterone level UP to normal.

Kenny Croxdale

Re: Testosterone Article

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:07 am
by NightFaLL
Matt Z wrote:I would imagine someone taking testosterone and not exercising would soon reach a plateau. From there, they would have to increase the dosage, add other performance enhancers or start working out to keep making gains.
I'm sure they'd reach a plateau, I simply think the study shows how significant of an impact steroid use has.

Obviously great training + steroid use would show the most str/lbm gains, but I'd still venture to bet that bad training + steroids is still greater than natural training in itself.