deadlifts twice a week?

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leif3141
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deadlifts twice a week?

Post by leif3141 » Fri May 04, 2007 9:01 am

Good or Bad Idea?


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Post by TimD » Fri May 04, 2007 9:10 am

Like anything else, depends on the volume and intensity. I you are just learning them, and doing them for practice, form, with low intensity (defined as low weight), then every day wouldn't be too much. Done a very high intensities, maybe once a week or once every two weeks might be the right precription. Pavel T.in his "Power to the People" advises 3-5 times a week, with a few short warm up sets, then 1 work set of 5 at around 80-85%, then lower the weight somewhat and then do another set of 5. I've known many people that thrived on this. But you see the point I'm making. There are no absolutes, it depends on the circumstances and situation, in this case, those being intensity, volume, and frequency.
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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri May 04, 2007 9:43 am

TimD wrote:Like anything else, depends on the volume and intensity. I you are just learning them, and doing them for practice, form, with low intensity (defined as low weight), then every day wouldn't be too much. Done a very high intensities, maybe once a week or once every two weeks might be the right precription.
I'd agree with that.
Pavel T.in his "Power to the People" advises 3-5 times a week, with a few short warm up sets, then 1 work set of 5 at around 80-85%, then lower the weight somewhat and then do another set of 5. I've known many people that thrived on this.
I like Pavel T's work and agree with a lot of it. With that said, I don't agree with that. I haven't seen any thrive on that training program. And I am not sure it works that well for Pavel.

Pavel live out here in California and lifts at the meets. Last year at the state meet, he bombed out of the deadlift (make no lifts).

This year he won the 181 lb class at 37 with a 490 deadlift. [http://powerliftingca.com/2007%20Califo ... %20DL2.pdf] see page 9 on this web site.

My best pull at in the 181 at about 33 yrs was 575. I did it back in the early 1980 via deadlifting heavy once a week.

My best pull is 617 at 55 yr at 210 lbs and I NEVER deadlift prior to any meet.

In working with Mike Tronski, we took his deadlift from 535 lbs at the 2005 California State Meet to 589 lbs at the 2007 California State Meet...and Mike is not a deadlifter.

We did that by limiting his deadlift workouts to once a once ever two or three weeks.

Phil Rivera of New Mexico improved hie deadlift by only working it once a month.

I agree with that how often you train it is dependend on the factors he stated above. However, Pavel's idea of working it 3-5 times a week with 80% plus is will overtrain the lower back.

I agree with Loue Simmons' on deadlifts. "Why do an exercise that takes more than it gives back."

Recovery from heavy deadlfits takes longer. You can utilizes other lower back movement that will work the back without beating it up.
But you see the point I'm making. There are no absolutes, it depends on the circumstances and situation, in this case, those being intensity, volume, and frequency.
While there are no absolutes, there are sound training principles that work for the majority of lifters. And in the majority of humans, the lower back is easily over trained via deadlifting.

Kenny Croxdale

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Re: deadlifts twice a week?

Post by Stephen Johnson » Fri May 04, 2007 9:45 am

leif3141 wrote:Good or Bad Idea?
Just curious - what does the rest of your lifting routine look like? What is your reason for (or fear of) deadlifting twice a week? As TimD said, deadlifting twice a week might or might not be a good idea, depending on your circumstances.

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Post by KPj » Fri May 04, 2007 10:18 am

Just to provide more examples in relation to Tims post - "there are no absolutes"

I began my training the exact same way as an older brother-in-law, same programs, progressions etc - hes been training 15 years, impressive size and strength, no injuries or issues. I trained for 18months - 2 years, and I have a string of issues and imbalances from head to toe. I was very strict on form and never let my ego take over my work out. So what happened ? Well, we're both different people, with different genetics, life styles, habbits.... What worked for him failed miserably for me.

Heres a good deadlifting article on how frequent 'pulling' can be benificial under certain circumstances...

http://elitefts.com/documents/frequent_pulling.htm

Will also add that im new to deadlifting i pull 3 times per week using DL variations - not including Stiff Leg DL's so you could say 4 times per week. I also have imbalance / postural issues as stated above, and deadlifts and there variations can help the cause in that respect

In my case i'm inexperienced, new to the exercise therefore learning it by doing it frequently, and utilising it to help my main goal - correcting my posture.

DL's are more complicated than they look and feel so it's worth taking the time to feel them out,

good info on form here

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;js ... ?id=459964

For the purpose of balance - if I wasnt correcting my posture and was pulling 3 times my body weight - i would not DL 3-4 times per week!


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Post by Ironman » Fri May 04, 2007 1:09 pm

I would say I disagree with Kenny. Of course that's about 90% of the time, so whats new.

The deadlift is not just for the back. It works a lot of muscles. It is also very hard on the body. This can be very good depending on your goals. It is of course better with all 25's loaded so it is lower to the ground.

I like Romanian and sumo with 25's myself. That's the best for body composition. You pair that up with squats and standing calf and you really hit all the bases for legs.

Then you could take a bar with 25's and lift from a platform, so the bar is on the level with your feet, and use a snatch grip. If you are doing full body, you get a lot of bang for your buck with that. That hits just about everything.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri May 04, 2007 4:22 pm

The deadlift is not just for the back. It works a lot of muscles.
Good mornings and hyperextensions the same basic muscle groups but are less taxing.
It is also very hard on the body.
Exactly. The lower back takes more of a beating from deadlifts. Thus, less frequent intense sessions are better.

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Post by Hoister » Fri May 04, 2007 5:33 pm

I am always facinated by the responses that come in for this question.

I personally follow a progressive-lift routine that has me ending the session doing many progressively-heavier singles up to a MAX for the day. I follow the routine daily, Mon-Fri for 2 weeks, take a week off and repeat. I have followed this routine for months on end, working in the range 85-95% of my personal best each day. I have gone 6 months on this before burning out.

On the other hand, i see and hear of people who need up to 2 weeks between similar heavy sessions.

I find that you really need to test yourself and see what suits you best. How others react may not apply to you in the slightest...

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Post by Ironman » Sat May 05, 2007 2:46 am

Goodmornings and hyperextensions are similar to a straight leg deadlift. They are even sort of close to a Romanian deadlift, with the difference being the Romanian deadlift places more of the stress on the hamstrings and a bit less on the back.

As for the regular deadlift, this is a matter of opinion in a way. In my opinion you get your ass down, back straight and you're bent forward just a bit, but much closer to 180 degrees then 90 degrees at the waist. Your butt and hips do most of the pulling, with your hams and back pulling to a lesser extent.

In some peoples opinion it is done almost the same as a straight leg. In that case it is mostly lower back.

So it kind of depends on what you think is the right way to do a deadlift.

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Post by leif3141 » Sat May 05, 2007 2:01 pm

Ok...I'll specify...I try to do deadlifts in a way that works mostly legs and butt the most...and obviously lower back does factor in. I use as much weight as I can, three sets, and 10 times each. Right now I am doing around 205-215 10 times twice a week. Some dude told me I would overtrain doing them twice a week with max weight on 10 reps.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat May 05, 2007 2:54 pm

leif3141 wrote:Ok...I'll specify...I try to do deadlifts in a way that works mostly legs and butt the most...and obviously lower back does factor in. I use as much weight as I can, three sets, and 10 times each. Right now I am doing around 205-215 10 times twice a week. Some dude told me I would overtrain doing them twice a week with max weight on 10 reps.
Are you able to add weight to your lift? If you're stalled on the same weight for a while, it sounds like that dude is right

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sat May 05, 2007 3:23 pm

Ironman wrote:Goodmornings and hyperextensions are similar to a straight leg deadlift. They are even sort of close to a Romanian deadlift, with the difference being the Romanian deadlift places more of the stress on the hamstrings and a bit less on the back.
Good morning work the glutes as much as the Romanian deadlifts if performed correctly. You need to push back when when executing them.
As for the regular deadlift, this is a matter of opinion in a way. In my opinion you get your ass down, back straight and you're bent forward just a bit, but much closer to 180 degrees then 90 degrees at the waist. Your butt and hips do most of the pulling, with your hams and back pulling to a lesser extent.
Mike Roberts "Precision Pulling" that KPj listed in his post provide technique guidelines for deadlift. As Roberts notes

4) Hip High--You want start from a quater squat position. This positions your butt higher, a stronger position for pulling than "ass down."

Your back is heavily involved in a conventional deadlift. Research by Dr Tom McLaughlin biomechanical research shows the muscle firing sequence is back-legs-back.

The lower back breaking the weight off the floor, the legs then kick in, and the lower back finishes the pull.

With sumo deadlifters, McLaughlin, showed the firing order was legs-back. The legs breaking the weight off the ground. The back finished the pull.

So, the lower back and hamstrings are heavily involved in the deadlift movement. That why it is considered more of a posterior chain movement.

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Post by Hoister » Sat May 05, 2007 7:00 pm

Overtraining is a concept used to excuse yourself from working hard or HARDER.

The only thing stopping you from deadlifting as much as you want - is you.

-Hoister

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sat May 05, 2007 9:38 pm

Hoister wrote:Overtraining is a concept used to excuse yourself from working hard or HARDER.
Not true. The problems is that many lifters are overly ambitious. They train too hard. The end result is that instead of making progress, they go backward.

Any lifter who believes all it takes is working hard or HARDER is missing its "village idiot."
The only thing stopping you from deadlifting as much as you want - is you.
If there were true, everyone would be pulling 1,000 lbs...no problem.

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Post by Hoister » Sun May 06, 2007 7:04 am

I think we just found your village's idiot.

Ever THINK that you might be wrong? Ever THINK that there are exceptions to YOUR experience?

Ever think things completely through before answering someone's questions?

I guarantee it will never work if you never try it...


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