New Workout

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Post by Ironman » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:55 pm

It looks good to me.


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Post by pdellorto » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:32 am

Ironman, thanks. I'm concerned because my bar path isn't straight, I'm swinging it around my knees a bit. Also, I feel much of the weight in my lower back compared to my glutes and quads. Maybe I'm just too adjusted to trap bar deadlifting with its clear glutes-and-quads emphasis? I just feel that initial pull go right through my legs and into my lower back instead of feeling it in my glutes & quads.

Looking at the various rows, it might just be easiest to go back to Dumbell Rows since I've been doing them recently. I know I have the form down, I have recent data on my 10-rep maximum to derive a good 5-rep weight. I'm also concerned that with my erectors are already getting a good workout from deadlifts and then being used to stabilize in my standing shoulder presses. So maybe asking them to stabilize heavy bent rows in the same workout seems like a potentially bad idea.

I noticed that exrx doesn't break out Pendlay Rows, although it does mention doing BB Bent Over Rows with the torso horizontal for added back focus. How do you suggest an addition to the site?

If I add rows, should I put them before or after the standing press, do you think? I can see alternating them with the Bench Presses, but I can also see leaving them to last because they're further working my back after the deadlifts.

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Post by TimD » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:28 am

Peter, again, couldn't see the pics, but a few comments on getting the bar around the knees. See the positioning here, with the RDL.
http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/RL.htm
Note the key points, SHINS VERTICAL, BUTT BACK. It might be a good idea practicing these for a whilegetting the bar down to mid shin. OK, now you are going to take it off the floor. For most mere mortals, positioning with the bar on the ground, the shins will NOT be vertical. What we teach the kids to do (fter RDL practice) is to set up on the ground, shins will be going forward a bit in most cases, break the bar off the ground, THEN shift into a position withbutt back, shins vertical. Yes, the bar will travel slightly back and into your now vertical shin, an inward motion toward your body. Once at that position, the bar travels directly upward in a vertical motion upward and past the knee. This is the also good training for the first pull in OL.
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Post by Ryan A » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:41 pm

Couple things...

(1) You may have the bar too close to your shin to start. If you want to pull straight up you should start with it somewhere over where your laces start (on most shoes).

(2) You also spend a long time getting set up for that first rep which in my opinion is going to make you weaker when you finally pull. Most important thing about setup besides getting it right is doing it fast.

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Post by stuward » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:40 pm

Looking at your video, I think that you are trying to lift too much with your legs as in a squat. that's probably a carry over from the trap lifts. You should get your butt further out and focus on lifting with your glutes and moving your hips forward as you lift. It's not really a quad exercise. Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs-wOHN5tdw

As Tim said, getting the shins vertical and the butt back is key. Notice how vertical the shins are and how far back the butt is in this video.

Stu


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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:49 am

TimD - let me make sure I'm following your advice correctly - I should practice this part of the RDL and essentially use that as the upper part of my conventional Deadlift pull? I'd pull the bar up, immediately move to get the shins vertical (which should also mean my hips and shoulders move up without changing angle if I'm understanding correctly), and then do the thrust-the-hips-forward for the second part of the pull. Is that correct?
Bummer you can't view flash...if there was a non-flash way for me to upload it I would.

Ryan A - yeah, I am setting up slowly, but that's because I'm first reading and then mentally reviewing my cues (they are on the floor in front of me - I only wear my glasses to deadlift so I can read them). I'm not comfortable with the lift after such a long layoff, so I want to be sure of my setup. I'll speed up when I get it down and can drop the cue sheet.
I've been told that the best place to center the bar is over the balls of my feet. That's a perfect cue for me because I have to lift barefoot so I can be 100% certain of that placement. That should be about the same place as you're telling me if I'm judging correctly.

Stuward - you're probably right. I spend most of my effort shoving my feet through the floor. I'll try to concentrate on my hips next time (Monday) after the initial push and see how that feels. That's probably why I feel it in my back...


I appreciate all the support guys. My deads have suffered a lot of neglect and you're really helping me get them back to where they need to be. Wish I could just find a powerlifting coach here, but the only powerlifter I found is so far out of the competitive game he doesn't know anyone anymore...and does have time to coach me hands on.

--
Peter

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Post by TimD » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:16 am

PDell, had to read it a couple of times, but yes. As Ryan mentioned earlier, the start will have the shins going slightly forward over the bar. Just break the bar off the ground, shift center of gravity back a bit to get shins vertical, pulling the bar into the shins. You are correct, the hips and shoulder will shift a bit back and slightly up, but angle should remain same. Then complete the movement as in the RDL upward motionby moving the hips forward and keeping a flat back (scapula retracted with a puffed chest) and moving the back towards vertical simulataneously. Once you have the shins vertical, the bar should have a vertical track up and over the knees. For us OL typesonce the bar gets over the knees, we scoop and pop, but that's a whole different story. The first part of an OL pull starts off with a clean or snatch grip Deadlift to knees.
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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:43 am

TimD - thanks, okay, glad I understood correctly. I'll give that a try. Between your advice and stuward's comments on my video I think I know a couple specific things to try vis my hips and shins. My next lift day is Monday but if I can sneak in some plate time on Friday I'll give a short test of 50kg lifts again to see how my form is doing.

FWIW, I used the cues listed on the web page below as the basis of my own cue sheet, modified to include stuff I know I need to remember from other places and removing stuff that I never forget (like foot placement and grip notes).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadlift

Not sure why wikipedia has such a nice list of cues for Deadlifts but not for much of any other lift, but there you go. It helped me. If its wrong, you can always edit the wiki page. :D

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Post by TimD » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:54 am

Hey PDll, it is good. Here is another , briefer list, written by an Olifter, but it is good.
http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/DL.htm

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:58 pm

TimD, thanks. That page is a great resource. It's a shame the originator died, but it's wonderful that people keep it up. I'll try light-weight RDLs for practice and do conventional deadlifts at lower weight while I drill down to perfect form.

Since I'm doing crossfit I need to master the deadlift and that low pulling portion for when I clean or snatch.

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Post by pdellorto » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:35 am

Okay, I deadlifted today, and here is the result:

http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b287/ ... 27e707.flv


I know my hips rise faster than my shoulders at first, but only slightly, and that's easily fixable as I practice more. But I think I got into a nice groove and they felt nice. That's my 3rd set of 72.5kg, 4th set overall. The others are nice too; this one is representative of my overall form today.

I essentially placed my feet slightly angled out, balls of the feet under the bar, and followed 2 cues:

- keep the shins straight until the bar was below my knees on the descent, and straighten them first on the ascent.
- keep my lower back arched hard no matter what.

And did the lifts. It worked fine. The load felt evenly distributed (no lower back stress like before), and as a matter of fact felt very light. I was looking at John Christy's article here:
http://www.totalstrength.info/article3.htm

...and he mentioned that method. It worked fine. The other cue sheet I had was much longer but they have sunk in already. Concentrating on just the two cues worked fine. Knowing the upper portion would look like an RDL helped a lot, too. And the hip drive just comes naturally!

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Post by stuward » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:18 am

Peter, it really did look better. Good work.

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:53 am

Here is my updated and revised workout based on comments and my experience of doing it plus crossfit for a few weeks:


Deadlift - 1 x 5, 3 x 5
Bench Press - 1 x 5, 3 x 5
Standing Press - 1 x 5, 3 x 5
Bent-Over Dumbell Rows - 1 x 5, 3 x 5
Chinup Holds - static hold for max time; when I reach 60 seconds I'll change to knees-to-elbows holds for time, then move towards a front lever hold.
External Rotation - 1 x 10, 1 x 10.


Changes:

- lowered the warmup reps from 10 to 5, that's enough to get a good groove.

- dropped weighted chinups, it was too much on top of all the crossfit daily workout pullups. Swapped in Bent-Over Dumbell Rows.

- Kept the "static holds" from my chinup work. Unweighted, I'm holding halfway down. Seems to be helping my grip and my chinups. I'm at 40 seconds now. When I reach 60 seconds I'll start over with knees-to-elbows holds and eventually L-pullup holds. I'm ambitious. This is static so I don't feel the same exhaustion I got trying chins.

- Added a stopwatch to my gear to rigidly time rest to 3 minutes between work sets. On dumbell rows I start it after my left side reps and before my right, to ensure both sides get 3 minutes rest and to cut down overall time. Previously I'd only rest 1-2 minutes between sets.

- dropped side bends. I do these at 45kg, and my grip fails after the deadlifts and static holds. Lower weight isn't worth it, and higher weight is getting hard to fit on the dumbells.

- dropped my warmup squats down to 5 or 6 squats with the bar to practice squat form plus general warmup. 50 squats took too long and less weren't so effective at warming me up after all.

***

I've really just gotten into the groove, but I like this workout. I'm handling higher weights already on the bench press (still an anemic 57.5kg, but I'm confident it'll go up rapidly as my form is better), my deadlift is feeling great thanks to the form advice (I'm doing 72.5kg now, and it's light, which is as it should be) and my shoulder presses are strict and getting stronger. In a couple months I'll post my improvements. Right now the weights seem a bit embarrassingly low, probably because I hadn't been doing a couple of these lifts in way too long.

I wish I could fit weights in twice a week but that's tough to schedule; I seem to recover faster from 3 x 5 at 90% 1RM than from my previous workout with 1 x 10 at 75% 1RM and 1 x 5 at 90% 1RM. Huh, go figure, more volume and a higher weight and I feel better faster afterwards. I'll use the improved recovery to do more maximum effort single-lift days from crossfit and more metcon/HIIT workouts.

As always guys, thanks for the great advice and all the pointers to good sources. I knew a lot about lifting before I started posting and I feel like I've dramatically improved my knowledge since then.

Peter

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Post by stuward » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:43 am

- dropped side bends. I do these at 45kg, and my grip fails after the deadlifts and static holds. Lower weight isn't worth it, and higher weight is getting hard to fit on the dumbells.
I had the same problem with the side bends. First people looked at me strange when a lanky guy like me picks up a dumbell heavier than the guy standing next to me. My gym has preassembled dumbells up to sufficient weight but over 100# I found the dumbells chewed up my hands as they don't rotate and the dumbells tend to roll against my thigh. I switched to cable side bends. I can use more weight with them and it's easier to hold onto. I do them after deadlifts so it doesn't affect my grip.

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:04 am

Back in the US, I used to do my side bends with one of those funky EZ curl bars with a kettlebell-like handle in the middle. No idea what it's called...the local store I bought it at called it a Scott Curl Bar but I can't find it under that name for a picture.

Anyway, I could load it up as much as I wanted, the plates were never in the way. The handle kept it from rotating. The shortest bar here is 6' so it's a little hard to control it, so I've been using plate-loading dumbells. It's just too short to take lots of small plates so I don't compromise my ROM. But mostly it's the grip...tired hands + 45 kg + bare feet almost directly under the dumbell makes me worry. :D

Oh well, I'll move forward under the theory that my obliques won't suffer as I do crossfit and overhead pressing. I'll test it from time to time and if drops back down, I'll find a way to add them into my workouts somewhere.


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