Routine and Reps

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Routine and Reps

Post by duly noted » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:35 pm

My lifting routine is Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri... One week: Arms, Chest & Shoulders, Back, Legs respectively... Next week: Back & Biceps, Chest & Triceps, Shoulders, Legs respectively. 3 sets of each exercise 12 reps. Does this sound reasonable? What about the flat bench. Seems like years past, I did fewer reps... but all the others were 12 unless failure occurred... And if failure occurs rather early or mid last set, is the weight too heavy?


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Post by brook011 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:51 pm

12 sounds kind of high. If I can do 12 at a lower weight, I can do 6-8 at a little bit heavier weight for a more intense session, though thats just me.

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Post by stuward » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:57 pm

Have you been lifting for long or is this your first program in some time? You are better off starting with a good strength program first. "Starting Strength" is the best one. It's based on 3 whole body workouts per week. It works the big movements only: Squats, Deadlifts, Bench Press, Bent Rows and Military press all done at 5 reps. The idea is to get strong first. Then if you want to add in the isolation body part training you can do that after.

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Post by Chris_A » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:58 pm

My lifting routine is Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri... One week: Arms, Chest & Shoulders, Back, Legs respectively...
What are your goals? Are you looking for bodybuilding or pure strength? If it’s bodybuilding, then I’d suggest the following.

For this 4 day split, you’re hitting your arms to close to your Chest routine. Your arms wont’ be 100%, and you need them for your Chest exercises. You’d be better off working: Arms / Legs, then rest 1 day, then Chest & Shoulders / Back

On Chest and Shoulders day, you should hit the Chest with at least 2 exercises (one compound and one isolation) such as Decline Bench and Incline Flyes. Then for your shoulders you should hit Anterior and Lateral Delts. For these, use either Plate or BB raises for anterior delts and then Lateral Raises for Lateral Delts. If you want extra work on your chest, try Decline Dumbbells Presses, Flat Barbell Presses, and Incline Flyes.

On back day you’ll want at least 2 moves for traps/lats such as Bent-over BB Rows and Front Pull-downs. For extras lat work, add a seated row if possible, or a bent DB row. Since this is a pull day, you should also hit your upper traps with heavy Shrugs (barbell or dumbbell), and your posterior delts with Bent Lateral Flyes.

Next week: Back & Biceps, Chest & Triceps, Shoulders, Legs respectively. 3 sets of each exercise 12 reps.
That’s a nice split, and it’s one that I personally use most of the time. On Back and Biceps day, make sure to hit Upper lats with Shrugs, and Posterior Delts with Bent Laterals.

On Chest and Tri day, make sure to hit anterior delts with a BB or DB Raise and lateral delts with Lateral Raises.
What about the flat bench.
Depending on your current chest development, you may get quicker gains with Decline Benchpress followed by Incline Flyes. Stick with those for a month or so, then switch over to Incline Benchpress and Decline Flyes. If, however, you are only doing once chest exercise, then do flat bench. If you plan on doing multiple chest exercises, then use the decline/incline combination.
Seems like years past, I did fewer reps... but all the others were 12 unless failure occurred... And if failure occurs rather early or mid last set, is the weight too heavy?
12 reps is a bit high for maximum Hypertrophy (muscle growth). It’s better to stick in the 8-10 rep range. If you can’t do 8 reps, then the weight is too heavy. If you can do more than 10, then it is too light. Once you can do more than 10 reps, add weight and work back up to 10 reps. It should be noted that adding more weight may knock you out of the 8 – 10 rep range, but don’t worry; just keep working your way back to 10 reps and then add more weight.

There is some good info in this thread as well:

http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4653

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Post by Chris_A » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:05 pm

Stuward – Nice post!

Are you talking about Rippetoe’s program? I’ve heard great things about that but never tried it. A lot of people are really raving about it, and even though I’ve been lifting a long time, I’m tempted to try it myself.

Although, I’m bit confused about his idea of a “Bent Barbell Row”. On one forum, everyone was comparing the Row to a Clean. But......a Row works an entirely different group of muscles from a Clean, so I’m wondering if they are truly interchangeable in this program. The suggested workout I’ve seen says you should do Cleans or you may sub in Pendlay or Bent rows instead. I’ve got to be honest, just thinking about doing a Pendlay row makes my back ache! ;-)

But, I LOVE regular Bent-over rows.

Oddly enough, on one site I saw, they said the row should end with you pressing the weight over-head. Huh???? That seems to be some sort of modified Clean?

Have you got Rippetoe's book or used the routine? What sort of row is he advocating? Is it the regular bent-over Row that I’m thinking about, or is it something else?

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Bac ... erRow.html


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Post by stuward » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:41 pm

Chris_A wrote:Stuward – Nice post!

Are you talking about Rippetoe’s program? I’ve heard great things about that but never tried it. A lot of people are really raving about it, and even though I’ve been lifting a long time, I’m tempted to try it myself.
That's the program.
Chris_A wrote:Although, I’m bit confused about his idea of a “Bent Barbell Row”. On one forum, everyone was comparing the Row to a Clean. But......a Row works an entirely different group of muscles from a Clean, so I’m wondering if they are truly interchangeable in this program. The suggested workout I’ve seen says you should do Cleans or you may sub in Pendlay or Bent rows instead. I’ve got to be honest, just thinking about doing a Pendlay row makes my back ache! ;-)

But, I LOVE regular Bent-over rows.
Pendlay Rows are the Bent row that is intended for this program. You keep it strict but the weight has to be lower. Cleans were specified in the original program by Bill Starr. MarK Rippetoe substituted the bent row because they are easier to teach.
Chris_A wrote:Oddly enough, on one site I saw, they said the row should end with you pressing the weight over-head. Huh???? That seems to be some sort of modified Clean?
Sounds like a clean to me.
Chris_A wrote:Have you got Rippetoe's book or used the routine? What sort of row is he advocating? Is it the regular bent-over Row that I’m thinking about, or is it something else?

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Bac ... erRow.html
That's the row but he recommends a horizontal back. He doesn't actually call them Pendlay rows.

I have read the book but I don't own a copy. It has some excellent descriptions of the exercises. This site has the program.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=2281631

Stu

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Post by Chris_A » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:54 pm

Thanks Stuward!

Check this link on the Pendlay row......like I said, it makes my back ache to think about it. :-)

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-perform-t ... technique/

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Post by duly noted » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:03 pm

Basically, I would like to decrease body fat and build muscle. I have been in and out of the gym for the past ten years. I went through a fairly intense program ~ 10 years ago that achieved my goals, but i had a trainer that led me through it. It is very different when I am doing it alone.

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Post by stuward » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:06 pm

Building strength will help you loose fat and build muscle. It helps set the conditions for success. You also need to be able to train yourself and maintain consistency.

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Post by TimD » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:29 pm

Chris, Rippetoe's is based on Starr's old classic "The Strongest Shall Survive-Strength Training for Football". Basically a 5x5 program w/ 3 core lifts, push pull and squat, done each with a heavy , medium, light approach each week. Add 2 auxilliary exercises each day for 2X10-20 reps and you have it. Rippetoes varies in that he uses 2 separarate schedules, similar core lifts, but uses linear [periodization, trying to add weight each session. Good for beginners, but then he goes into a different programming mode after you pass the beginner stage. I actually like JV's the best of either, and he was around in Starr's day, and this is an example of what we did back in the 60's and 70's.
http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/QUALITY3.htm
My idea of starting someone out would be to familiarize one with most exercises, lifts, for 1-3 sets of around 8-15 reps, building on sets for about 3 weeks, full body, for familiarization if nothing else, then into something like Starr, Rippetoe, Asem to build a basic strength base, then let them deviate into splits or whatever else goals they had in mind.
Tim

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Post by KPj » Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:40 am

TimD wrote: My idea of starting someone out would be to familiarize one with most exercises, lifts, for 1-3 sets of around 8-15 reps, building on sets for about 3 weeks, full body, for familiarization if nothing else, then into something like Starr, Rippetoe, Asem to build a basic strength base, then let them deviate into splits or whatever else goals they had in mind.
Tim
I think this is excellent advice. I agree 100% and think that if more beginners done this their would be much fewer set backs down the line.

Beginners don't have the 'neural muscular efficiency' to lift heavy or intensely. Just grooving the movements with strict form, higher reps with a weight that lets them know their lifting, but nothing too heavy, will be enough to shock their system. Anyone I have helped start needs to be constantly cued on form, it takes a lot of concentration for them to just do the movement, never mind lift intensely or blast their chest from every possible 'angle' they can think of.

I like programs like the Rippetoe one. Quite simple and full of compound lifts. I don't think beginners should do any 'isolation' until they know how their body will react to compound movements. Some guys get big arms from 'squats and dead lifts' alone and some guys need a tonne of curls / isolation.

On top of that, and keeping in line with the hypertrophy goals, any massive guys i have spoken to or trained with only started doing fancy muscle splits once they had gained a large portion of their mass through the bread butter lifts - squats, dead lifts, presses, rows, pull ups etc. One of the guys only actually done a typical muscle split pre contest (he competed at country level - Mr Scotland). I only know literally 2-3 massive competing types, but I have also read the same things on the net and in books...

Went on a bit of a rant their. What I really meant to say was "stick to the basics, for now", and i'm another one who would recommend 'starting strength'.

KPj

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:40 am

Chris_A wrote:Have you got Rippetoe's book or used the routine? What sort of row is he advocating? Is it the regular bent-over Row that I’m thinking about, or is it something else?

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Bac ... erRow.html
I've got the book. He advocated dead-stop from the ground rows. He also doesn't recommend using rows instead of cleans. That bodybuilding.com forum post does, but Mark Rippetoe doesn't, not in the book anyway. So I decided to see if he posted anything about that, and I found this:

http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showt ... arbell+row

Basically, it boils down to "learn the clean." Video recording your form and posting it is a good way to get feedback, either posting here or elsewhere. That Q&A forum is loaded with clean videos you can check out.

If you're going to do Starting Strength, the book is worth picking up. I wish I had it as a beginner. I wish I had someone give me a "squat, squat, and then, oh, do some squats" routine instead of a the "bench every way possible" routine I was given instead. :|

Peter


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