Can Obama live up to expectations?

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Can Obama live up to expectations?

Yes
8
57%
No
6
43%
 
Total votes: 14

Matt Z
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Post by Matt Z » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:43 pm

PS.) I also fail to see how being pro-life makes one a sexist, especially since women are more likely than men to be pro-life.

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Post by Proper Knob » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:50 pm

As the late Bill Hicks once said,

"You're not a human being till you're in my phone book!!"

Back to the OP's question, will Obama live up to expectations? That surely comes down to what you expect?! If you belive that he will shore up the American economy, sort out the health care system, stop bombing poor defenceless 3rd world countries, communicate with the wider world including the so called 'axis of evil', make a positive impact with regards to climate change then i think yes. Any more than that and i think it's too much.

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Post by Proper Knob » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:53 pm

Matt, i'm curious, do you support the death penalty?

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Post by Matt Z » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:56 pm

No. I'm against the death penalty.

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Post by TheHeb » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:38 pm

I support the death penalty in some cases. For example, mass murders/serial killers/serial rapists don't deserve to live. They can't be rehabbed. How can we justify wasting resources on these people, whose utility to society has essentially dried up?

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Post by Ironman » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:42 am

Matt Z wrote:You know it's funny Ironman, you're obviously very sensative about the stereotypes and misconceptions people have about Atheists, and yet you're so quick to stereotype anyone who's views differ from your own. I don't remember saying anything about birth control, stem cell research, or gay marriage.
Actually I was talking about the religious right in general. I certainly wasn't talking about you.

I was not stereo typing. I am just telling you what they say. Trust me, I could never even dream up the stuff I said. Those are the kind of things they argue. THEY actually say they believe those things. I am not kidding. Listen to conservative talk radio. You will see what mean.

Now if I had ever said I was a dirty amoral heathen that wants to molest animals and kids and go on a killing spree because I have no god to hold me back, or that I am in league with satan to help unleash god's wrath on the earth. Then I could understand them portraying atheists like that.

They however DO make the slippery slope argument that gay marriage leads to marrying kids. So do you see why I might think that believe that?

I think the problem is, you live in PA where republicans and/or religious people are pretty moderate. That is NOT how it is further south.

Just look at what the Catholic church said today.

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Post by Ironman » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:55 am

Matt Z wrote:As for the bill I refered to ... yes it would legalize elective third-trimester abortions, since it would end all state restrictions on abortion. If I can find the article I'll post it.
I know it would. And that is good since nearly all third trimester abortions are done to save the woman's. People who want an abortion get them done earlier. An elective third trimester is rare. Those women that have those actually wanted that baby, but they faced a medical problem where their probability of dying is higher than they are willing to risk to keep the baby.

In fact there are some cases where the woman is almost certain to die, and the child will not make it more than a day or 2.

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Post by Proper Knob » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:00 am

TheHeb wrote:I support the death penalty in some cases. For example, mass murders/serial killers/serial rapists don't deserve to live. They can't be rehabbed. How can we justify wasting resources on these people, whose utility to society has essentially dried up?
I read somewhere once that keeping a prisoner locked up for life was cheaper than executing them. The cost of the numerous appeals process including lawyers fees from both sides etc, outweighs the cost of keeping someone locked up for life.

Their utility to society hasn't dried up if you stick them on a bicycle connected to a dynamo which then generates electricity. If they did that for a few hours a day they could then serve some purpose.

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Post by Ironman » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:12 am

Matt Z wrote:Meanwhile, my personal views on abortion are as follows ... Life begins at conception. That isn't a religious belief, it's a scientific fact. Exactly when that life becomes a person is a matter of opinion, so I can understand the argument for allowing abortions in the very early stages of development (although personally I'm against all elective abortions). Elective abortions performed in the late stages of development are another matter entirely. A nine-month-old fetus is a baby, and I don't see how anyone can argue in favor of legalized infanticide.
Actually life starts BEFORE conception. Sperm are certainly alive. Eggs are sort of alive. They are dormant, but still viable genetic material. Every time a guy cums 300 million babies die. The bacteria in my intestines that help digest my food are alive too. My immune system is murdering viruses by the millions too. Yes I know it's silly.

There are a bunch of trees in my back yard. They could become a house, but nobody is going to give me $100K for them.

Abortion in early stages? I think that proves my point about you not understanding because you are from PA. Here in MO any republican voter would think you are total baby killing pinko bed wetting liberal.

I don't agree with elective 2nd trimester abortions personally. But I am not going to tell woman what she can and can't do with her body, or how much risk is too much. Nor do I want to create a black market.

Abortion is NOT a lightly made decision. The girl is going to have to live with that the rest of her life. It is something she will never feel good about. It will always hurt. But it still might be the right thing for her to do.

What we need to do is prevent it with contraceptives and proper sex education. conservatives out here appose that by the way.

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Post by Ironman » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:20 am

Matt Z wrote:PS.) I also fail to see how being pro-life makes one a sexist, especially since women are more likely than men to be pro-life.
Because a lot of women are old. They "know their place" and they are past child bearing years.

Younger woman disagree.

We don't get pregnant so we don't understand what it is like. It is kind of funny that most people who are pro life can't get pregnant.


By the way, I don't want you to feel like I'm picking on you. It's not personal. I'm just saying what I think about this. I don't want you to feel like you can't rip on me about this stuff either.
Last edited by Ironman on Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ironman » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:29 am

By the way. I support the death penalty because after all, is life in prison REALLY more humane then death penalty? Well provided the execution is relatively painless.

I think life in prison is worse. I think a lot of people don't like the death penalty because they want to spare their own conscience rather than a persons life. Life in prison doesn't hurt you. But putting someone to death. That hurts.

Now if you're Catholic it's because the Church said. But I think self interest is a big factor in other death penalty foes.

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Post by Ironman » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:40 am

ironmaiden708 wrote:
Gay Marriage - I don't support that but I support a civil union which would give all the benefits of marriage would be fine.

I see, separate but equal eh? Because apartheid and Jim Crow laws were so cool.

Will there be a gay bathroom too?

I think in 20 years people will think about what they said and be embarrassed. Kind of like the way people started felling in the 80's about stuff they said in the 60's.



That's kind of harsh. Sorry. Nothing against you. I just wanted to make that point.

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Post by ironmaiden708 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:05 am

I see, separate but equal eh? Because apartheid and Jim Crow laws were so cool.
Too bad we don't have he Jim Crow laws I really enjoyed those. :(
Will there be a gay bathroom too?
I'm all for that to, you must be a mind reader!
I think in 20 years people will think about what they said and be embarrassed. Kind of like the way people started felling in the 80's about stuff they said in the 60's.
Hey if I'm ignorant for my POV on this issue so be it, I will be able to sleep soundfully tonight knowing I am indeed ignorant when it comes to gay rights. IMO marriage is between a man and women and thats it.

That's kind of harsh. Sorry. Nothing against you. I just wanted to make that point.
No offense taken.

Matt Z
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Post by Matt Z » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:29 pm

Elective third-trimester abortions may be rare, but they shouldn't happen at all.

Meanwhile, sperm may be alive, but it's not exactly human. It only has half as many chromosomes as a blood cell or skin cell.

Likewise, I wouldn't tell anyone what they can and can't do with their body. However, a fetus isn't a body part, it's a human life. The mother and fetus don't even share blood.

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Post by Matt Z » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:39 pm

"I read somewhere once that keeping a prisoner locked up for life was cheaper than executing them. The cost of the numerous appeals process including lawyers fees from both sides etc, outweighs the cost of keeping someone locked up for life." - Proper Knob

That's true. However, the most convincing argument against the death penalty (for me at least) that the criminal justice system is imperfect.

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