Cliff's Log Discussion

wilburburns · Post by **wilburburns** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:40 pm

pdellorto wrote:Single-leg stuff in WS4SB is always "per leg" rep counts, if that helps.

I expected this to be teh correct answer, but just like clarification.

And it's hard to tell on grip work how much to do - I've had them make me do 3 sets of heavy wrist work or just 1 quick set of 1-2 exercises. It really depends on what the whole workout involves.

Good to know.

Cliff

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:29 am

Yeah, if you deadlifting for ME work that day, you do thick bar work, lots of rows, or your ab work is hanging leg raises, you don't need a lot of grip work. If not, stick a few extra sets in there.

But it's accessory work, so it doesn't have to kill you, just add a little extra stimulus.

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:57 am

I am still doing Low Bar back squats for these, even though Defranco's promotes Front or High Bar Squats for this lift.

That's it, I'm going early today and telling Joe!

;)

Overall, These are just brutal for me and I can't completely understand why.

It's hard to gage remotely, but I'll note that I haven't even graduated to barbell step-ups yet. I do barbell lunges, but I'm still doing dumbbells for step-ups and split-squats. The higher center of gravity from the weight makes it harder. Maybe instead of 1 x 45# bar, you can go 2 x 25# dumbbells? Heavier but the lower center of gravity means the balance is easier but the work is still there.

wilburburns · Post by **wilburburns** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:59 am

pdellorto wrote:
I am still doing Low Bar back squats for these, even though Defranco's promotes Front or High Bar Squats for this lift.
That's it, I'm going early today and telling Joe!

;)

Please Don't tell him... hehehehe :)
Thought I should mention it though, just in case I look back later and wondered what type of squats I was doing...

That being said, I have grown to like Low Bar Back Squats. This is scary...

Overall, These are just brutal for me and I can't completely understand why.
It's hard to gage remotely, but I'll note that I haven't even graduated to barbell step-ups yet. I do barbell lunges, but I'm still doing dumbbells for step-ups and split-squats. The higher center of gravity from the weight makes it harder. Maybe instead of 1 x 45# bar, you can go 2 x 25# dumbbells? Heavier but the lower center of gravity means the balance is easier but the work is still there.

I can see how this would make a difference. The Quads and Hams would still be hit hard with Dumbbells, but all the other stabilizer muscles would get a bit of a rest. Of course, my "Core" would get a rest also with DB's.

Cliff

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:46 pm

Should I go for 120# on the Bench, or add more reps at 115# to try and get past this small. I guess another option would be to change the from the DB Inclines to DB Flat Bench for the accessory work. I'm doing Inclines to try and keep a decent balance. In a few more weeks, I intend to switch to working on heavy inclines, and DB flat for accessory work. I don't know if this is a good plan or not though.

Cliff, Jungledoc and I will sound like a broken record on this one. But I think you might want to check out 5/3/1 by Jim Wendler. Here's my review if you didn't see it already:

http://strength-basics.blogspot.com/200 ... 5-3-1.html

Just use the week-to-week percentages and progressions from that system for your bench press; keep the rest as WS4SB. It will take all the guesswork out of how much loading and reps you should use, how much volume, etc. It's self-adjusting. You can look at the links in that review for a few other reviews/posts that give you the basics of the system. That's all you need to start.

If your 1-rep max bench is 130 (It's higher, I know, but let's just say), you take 90% of that, so 117 rounded down to 115. That makes 115 your "training max." Then, you'd do these work sets:

Week 1: 5 x 65% of 115, 5 x 75% of 115, 5 or more of 85% of 115
Week 2: 3 x 70%, 3 x 80%, 3 or more of 90%
Week 3: 5 x 75%, 3 x 85%, 1 ore more of 95%
Week 4: Deload (40-50-60% I think, 5/5/5, no "or more." Go lighter/less reps on the accessories, too).

The week after, you'd add 5 or 10 pounds to your training max, re-calculate, and do it again. If you ever feel like you can't get more than the minimum reps (5, 3, or 1) in the last set, just don't. If you have no spotter, don't push it too hard either.

So the weight goes up progressively, the volume matches your actual limit for the day (and it's most heavier weights, too), and you get slow and steady progress. Seriously, the best part is not how well it works, but that you never feel like you're forced to guess how much work to do or how heavy. It's planned out and your body either has a lot of gas (and you do lots of reps in work set 3) or it doesn't (and you get your goal reps and go home).

I'd highly recommend it if you feel stuck.

wilburburns · Post by **wilburburns** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:07 pm

Thanks Again Peter,

I may go for the 5/3/1 program for my presses. Would you recommend this for just the ME Upper Days and keep the Rep Day as is, or should I completely change my Rep Day.

Also, what about the Accessory DB Bench Press. In your opinion, would I be better to Flat DB Bench, while doing Heavy or 5/3/1 Flat Bench. Or is mixing it up as I am currently doing the best plan.

Ironically, it has not been that long ago, I was complaining about how Slowly my squats were going up, then all of the sudden something clicked and I was able to consistently add weight to the bar and go on. This never happened with my pressing though. I still think much of my pressing is psychological, which could truly cause the 5/3/1 program to help me, because I would never be lifting a true 3 or 1 rep max.

Time to stop rambling now.. Gotta Softball game to play tonight. Only 2 more games left, then I can get back into my Thursday night lifting again.

Cliff

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:11 pm

I think what I'd do is change one thing at a time. First, just switch up the ME day's weights to 5/3/1. Try that for a cycle (4 weeks) or two (8 weeks). Then you might think about either switching up the RE day into another ME day, but for military pressing instead of bench pressing, say.

But it's probably worth taking it one step at a time. That way you can see for sure if the change is helping or not.

As for the accessories, I'm not sure it matters a whole lot. If you're not doing a lot of overhead pressing and you want to include the incline stuff, that's a good plan. If you have overhead presses elsewhere, I'd stick to flat DB pressing. That's how I'd do it.

The psychological aspect of 5/3/1 is underestimated, I think. You know it's a "1 rep" day but it's not really a hard single, it's 90% of 90% of your 1RM, so it's only 81% of your real max. That's usually something you do for 5-8 reps, so you know it's light. Plus you know it's part of a program of progress, so even if you only lift it that one time, you're thinking "fine, next week I'll do it slightly heavier and it's making me stronger."

wilburburns · Post by **wilburburns** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:35 pm

Peter,

There is no doubt that the psychological effect would be HUGE. It would be quite a while before I would actually be lifting what I "Think" would be a heavy weight. Especially given the "Light" Weights I am currently referring to. Also, the first Work set at 65% is a weight that I have been doing for a warmup for nearly all my BB Bench Pressing.

Using the Template you provided and yesterday's 95#x12 = estimated 1rep max 132 x 90% = 119# (USE) 120#
RED=Actual BLUE=USE,Rounded
Week 1: 5x(78) 80, 5x(90) 90, 5+x(102) 100
Week 2: 3x(84) 85, 3x(96) 95, 3+x(108) 110
Week 3: 1x(90) 90, 1x(102) 100, 1+x(114) 115
Week 4: 5x(48) 45, 5x(60) 60, 5x(72) 75

Week 5: Add Weight restart at Week 1.

Now that I have those numbers actually written down and can compare them to what I have been doing. I see that I "Should" be able easily do 10+ reps on the last set of week 1, easily 6-8reps on the last set of week 2, Likely 4-5 reps at the end of Week 3, then blast right through the the Deload (Week 4) like a warmup.

What "should" the Rest times be like? 3+min for my typical heavy work, or ~2min or less.

I know this works, because many have done it and proven it works. I am just having a hard time seeing how to fit it into my current plan, especially if I continue to do the Rep Day with 95# and continue to add reps to that workout.

Also, It's hard to fathom that lifting "Light" Weights can improve my strength. This goes against almost everything I keep reading and hearing, "To Get Stronger, Lift Heavy and Eat Well". I guess I need to decide what I am going to do before tomorrow's workout though.. It's either a goal of 120#x3 or start the 5/3/1 cycle.

Cliff

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:01 pm

wilburburns wrote:Also, the first Work set at 65% is a weight that I have been doing for a warmup for nearly all my BB Bench Pressing.

Yeah, I've yet to deal with a weight that is "heavy." Not for the goal reps, anyway. I'm only finishing my 2nd cycle, but still, it'll be a while before I hit weights that make me wonder if I could get the reps. By then, I should be much stronger and get those, too.

wilburburns wrote:Using the Template you provided and yesterday's 95#x12 = estimated 1rep max 132 x 90% = 119# (USE) 120#
RED=Actual BLUE=USE,Rounded
Week 1: 5x(78) 80, 5x(90) 90, 5+x(102) 100
Week 2: 3x(84) 85, 3x(96) 95, 3+x(108) 110
Week 3: 1x(90) 90, 1x(102) 100, 1+x(114) 115
Week 4: 5x(48) 45, 5x(60) 60, 5x(72) 75

Week 5: Add Weight restart at Week 1.

That's it. And for bench, you add only 5 pounds to that working weight - 120 - every 4 weeks. So the next time it'll be a 125 training max, then 130...it's slow, but it's steady. You could go up faster, but really, what's the rush?

wilburburns wrote:Now that I have those numbers actually written down and can compare them to what I have been doing. I see that I "Should" be able easily do 10+ reps on the last set of week 1, easily 6-8reps on the last set of week 2, Likely 4-5 reps at the end of Week 3, then blast right through the the Deload (Week 4) like a warmup.

Pretty much, yeah. Just don't go to failure on that last set, leave a rep or so in the tank. Find a 1RM calculator you like and use that to see how many reps you "need" to break your calculated 1RM and go for it. If you get more, great, if you can't, well, it's a cumulative program.

wilburburns wrote:What "should" the Rest times be like? 3+min for my typical heavy work, or ~2min or less.

As much as you need. I tend to fly through the warmups, 1 minute max, then slow down to 2-4 for the work sets. Like work set 1, 2 minutes, work set 2, 4 minutes, work set 3. But whatever works for you.

wilburburns wrote:I know this works, because many have done it and proven it works. I am just having a hard time seeing how to fit it into my current plan, especially if I continue to do the Rep Day with 95# and continue to add reps to that workout.

On your RE day, you can either do dumbbells for a change of pace (3 sets max reps, then 3 x 10 or something light for deload) or do bench pressing at 3 x max x 50-60% of your training max. Or do incline pressing or overhead pressing for a bigger change. Not that you can't do 3 x 10 x 95# or so, but since that's well into your training range it might not mesh well.

wilburburns wrote:Also, It's hard to fathom that lifting "Light" Weights can improve my strength. This goes against almost everything I keep reading and hearing, "To Get Stronger, Lift Heavy and Eat Well". I guess I need to decide what I am going to do before tomorrow's workout though.. It's either a goal of 120#x3 or start the 5/3/1 cycle.

Look at it this way - it works for the same reason that rep upper day helps you get stronger. The weight doesn't start heavy, but it gets that way, and the volume is self-adjusting to how much you can push out for the day. So you're only doing 5+ of a "light" 100 pounds. 5 x 100 should be light for you, but it'll get pretty hard when you try to crack 10 reps with it. So it doesn't start heavy, but that last rep is a really, really heavy one let me tell you. :)

So I say rack it up and go 5/5/5+ tomorrow. You won't regret it. You know that tomorrow, you'll have a new rep PR for 100 pounds. And that kind of thing will happen over and over.

wilburburns · Post by **wilburburns** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:51 pm

The Plan was to rack up and go 5/5/5 tonight. Last night teh family decided to carve pumpkins and have a night at home. :)

BUT... The Pumpkins did not want to be carved last night and decided to fight back. To make a long story short, A slip of the knife sent me off to the ER for 5 stitches and a tetanus shot. The Stitches are on my left inner forearm.

Obviously, I'll live, but do have some pretty good pain when moving my hand and wrist in certain directions. And the Muscle Soreness from the Tetanus Shot has already begun.

The Hand and Wrist pain, combined with the stitches will keep me from lifting for a couple of days at least. I don't want to do anything which "might" damage the stitches. I admit, I am a complete wimp when it comes to needles, and Definitely don't want to have to go through more stitches, or fixing these stitches.

I'm not happy about not lifting, but i'm really upset about not playing Softball on Thursday, which would be our last game of the season. Totally sucks...

Now back to lifting questions..
Still Looking at the WS4SB Templates, I want to switch out my exercises for a while. My ME Lift has been the BB Back Squat, but I want to start working on my DL as the Main Lift. However, I'm trying to choose the accessory lifts to go along with it?

Would the following be to PC Dominant? From all three ws4sb Templates, it appears as though the entire ME Lower day emphasizes the PC and Hamstrings the most.

Heavy DL's - Likely utilizing the 5/3/1 method
Lunge or Bulgarian Split squat or stepups
Weighted 45^ Hypers, or should I continue the RDL's
Grip- Shrug, wrist rollers, heavy holds

I consider my normal Squats more balanced and not really a PC or Quad specific lift. Therefore, as I look at my current workouts, I see a more balanced quad to hamstring workout.

Cliff

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:09 pm

Cliff, you don't have to exceed the goal reps every week on 5/3/1, but do it when you can. And yeah, if you're going to top the minimum reps, use a 1RM calculator to find a goal to aim for. May as well get a higher predicted 1RM every week that you can do it.

Nice work on the bench pressing today. Boo on the rope stealer. My advice is to get a good, long, solid towel. Feed it through the carabiner on the pulldown, and use that for face pulls and take it with you between sets. Quick setup, no stolen ropes, and it's grip work too.

wilburburns · Post by **wilburburns** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:53 pm

pdellorto wrote:Cliff, you don't have to exceed the goal reps every week on 5/3/1, but do it when you can. And yeah, if you're going to top the minimum reps, use a 1RM calculator to find a goal to aim for. May as well get a higher predicted 1RM every week that you can do it.

Nice work on the bench pressing today. Boo on the rope stealer. My advice is to get a good, long, solid towel. Feed it through the carabiner on the pulldown, and use that for face pulls and take it with you between sets. Quick setup, no stolen ropes, and it's grip work too.

Looks like I will need to Squeeze out 7 reps next week to make a decent gain for my Calculated 1rm. I think that is doable, but might be rough. I'm beginning to see how lowering the volume seems to be allowing me to more easily lift more weight.

However, I feel like I have not done anything until I do my final set. the the first 2 work sets at 70% and 80% just don't seem like anything. Is this how you feel working with higher weights.

What 1rm calculator are you using? My Logging program on my Iphone seems to be using the same formula as what's on this site. http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html I'm curious if your formula gets the same results.

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:14 am

wilburburns wrote:However, I feel like I have not done anything until I do my final set. the the first 2 work sets at 70% and 80% just don't seem like anything. Is this how you feel working with higher weights.

Yeah. Those weights are as heavy for you as mine are for me. The first two work sets feel suspiciously light, but I take them seriously because they aren't warmups. They do add up, and they are good practice for pulling heavy enough weights to matter but not heavy enough to be an energy-draining challenge. I'll have to look but I think Jim Wendler posted somewhere that'd he'd tried this system without the first two sets and it just didn't work as well. If I find it I'll post a link.

wilburburns wrote:What 1rm calculator are you using? My Logging program on my Iphone seems to be using the same formula as what's on this site. http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html I'm curious if your formula gets the same results.

I use [(reps-1)/30]+1 * weight. That lets me calculate for any rep count, which is useful when I'm 15 and 16 repping weights or doing Kroc Rows and I want to compare. I won't vouch for the results being my actual 1RM, but it seems fairly close at the lower rep ranges and gives me a basis of comparison.

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:57 am

For the deload, just do 5/5/5, don't go for max reps.

And either cut down the intensity or the volume on the accessories too. Do like 60% of the reps with the same weight, or just cut the weight down and keep the same reps. Or just skip all of it and do some dynamic stretches and so on. It's essentially a week off with light work to reinforce the main lift, so don't leave the gym tired.

And yeah, I can't remember when I missed a workout. Well, aside from planned breaks, like my trip in January or my "two weeks off" sparring daily in Japan. But unlike you and Doc, I build my life and my work around my training, not vice-versa. So when something has to give, it's my non-training activities.

pdellorto · Post by **pdellorto** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:02 pm

Cliff, found this, thought you'd want to read it.

Measuring progress on 5/3/1
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=108668&tid=