Would extreme cutting be bad in this case?

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Ricky
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Would extreme cutting be bad in this case?

Post by Ricky » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:48 pm

So I'm trying to trim off the little bit of fat I gained since I've been eating a LOT over the last couple months (I gained about 15 lbs) and it is going pretty well. I have a relatively fast metabolism anyway so it is pretty quick and easy. This makes me think... Since I'm usually having a harder time trying to GAIN weight, why would going extreme in this case be bad?

By "extreme", I mean about a 1500 kCal/day diet (going down from 6000+) and 45 mins to an hour of running or other heavy cardio every day.

The reasons I've heard not to cut too many calories at once is the whole leptin spike and it shifts your metabolism, but like... After I cut the fat I'm just gonna want to eat more and gain more weight again. Wouldn't it be beneficial to shift my metabolism in this way to make the whole gaining part easier?

I've not heard of the consequences of this in gaining lean mass vs. fat but it seems people who are more prone to gaining weight are more prone to gaining muscle in general.

Thoughts?

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:53 pm

How do you weigh now? 1500 kcals might be sufficient or wildly insufficient.

I'd suggest you take a look at the Get Shredded Diet by John Berardi. I did a variation of this for 3 weeks earlier this year to kick-start my weight loss for a competition cut. I lost a little more than 10 pounds and around 2-3% bodyfat in those three weeks. I gained most of the weight back, but not the body fat, as I tapered off the diet. I'm visibly leaner for having done it. I ate 1800 kcals a day, with all of about 60g of carbs, over half of which were fiber, trying to cut from around 185.

You don't really need all the supplements they listed - I got by with, basically, coffee, lots and lots of green tea, a multi, CLA, BCAAs/Greens+ powder, and willpower. It's hard but it'll work. I could have kept it up but I already dropped the weight I wanted in 3 weeks, and I figured out quick I wasn't getting down to the next weight class so I may as well come back up to the top of the one I was in. If I had to, I'm sure I could have done it for 6 weeks. Beyond that, you might need the Power Drive and so on he recommends.

Here is the article:

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_arti ... edded_diet

and here is a followup for tapering off of it (basically, carb cycling):

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_arti ... unshredded

Hope that helps.

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Post by Ricky » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:01 pm

pdellorto wrote:How do you weigh now? 1500 kcals might be sufficient or wildly insufficient.Hope that helps.
I'm about 155 or so right now (5'6-5'7).

Thanks for the articles -- I'll check them out!

EDIT: And reading it, it's actually extremely close to what I'm already doing. I'm not so big on the supplements though; I've just been adjusting my diet a bit so I get adequate protein with the cut in calories.

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Post by ApolytonGP » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:28 pm

I think the more valid comparison is 1500 calories to what your maintenance calories is, NOT to what you did before (that could be an arbitrary number and the 6000 is outrageous for your size and activity level).

First priciples, man. Think about how deep your deficit will be (which depends on the former, not the latter). That's the key thing changing your body rather than some Lipton thingie.

Kinda depends on your goals, how fast you decide to lose. Obviously, if you have to make a weighing or something, you calculate off of that. Otherwise, just do enough to stay motivated (which is subjective). Think anywhere from 1500 to 2000 would be fine. The cardio's fine (doesn't sound too extreme).

Keep on track to lose weight:
-don't cheat (blow the hard work from earlier)
-eat big veggies to stay satiated
-eat high lean protein to stay satiated
-read labels and understand your consumption
-no booze
-journal your progress and be methodical (if you do that for lifting, why not for this)

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Post by Ricky » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:38 pm

ApolytonGP wrote:I think the more valid comparison is 1500 calories to what your maintenance calories is, NOT to what you did before (that could be an arbitrary number and the 6000 is outrageous for your size and activity level).
Lol... That's what I thought before, and after I didn't gain any weight at 3000 I took it to 4000, then I took it to about 6000-8000 calories a day and that's when I started gaining weight. I *do* work out a lot though and my maintenance amount is probably somewhere between 2000-2500 (of course I'm just pulling this number out of mid air but I figure 1000 or so just to be awake and alive and another 1000-1500 expended between exercise and the fact that I walk everywhere).

The good thing is I can pretty much ignore hunger cravings completely. I don't know why but I can choose not to eat and although I can feel it, it's not that uncomfortable for me.

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Post by ApolytonGP » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:45 pm

you're not the biggest guy, but not tiny either. and you are young. Would not be surprised if your maintenance was between 2500 and 3000. but of course trial and error will give the physical answer. I really doubt it is as low as 2000.

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:54 pm

Ricky wrote:The good thing is I can pretty much ignore hunger cravings completely. I don't know why but I can choose not to eat and although I can feel it, it's not that uncomfortable for me.
If you do the GSD, that'll help.

You could do a more measured approach like ApolytonGP suggests, of course, but if you're going for "extreme" I'd use the GSD. It works very well. If you cut the sups, I'd still stick with the creatine and BCAAs around workout time. That helped immensely, as did caffeine, to help me power through some hard workouts.

Regardless, good luck with this!

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Post by hoosegow » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:39 pm

I don't know how young you are, but 15 pounds is a lot of weight, especially on your frame. You'll turn around and be fat. I'd play around with your calories. Slow it down so where you gain about a pound a month if gaining mass is your goal. If you are getting too big too quick, slow it down even further to where you lose a pound every two weeks. Don't go on a severe calorie restriction if you don't have to.

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Re: Would extreme cutting be bad in this case?

Post by Ironman » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:56 am

Ricky wrote:So I'm trying to trim off the little bit of fat I gained since I've been eating a LOT over the last couple months (I gained about 15 lbs) and it is going pretty well. I have a relatively fast metabolism anyway so it is pretty quick and easy. This makes me think... Since I'm usually having a harder time trying to GAIN weight, why would going extreme in this case be bad?

By "extreme", I mean about a 1500 kCal/day diet (going down from 6000+) and 45 mins to an hour of running or other heavy cardio every day.

The reasons I've heard not to cut too many calories at once is the whole leptin spike and it shifts your metabolism, but like... After I cut the fat I'm just gonna want to eat more and gain more weight again. Wouldn't it be beneficial to shift my metabolism in this way to make the whole gaining part easier?

I've not heard of the consequences of this in gaining lean mass vs. fat but it seems people who are more prone to gaining weight are more prone to gaining muscle in general.

Thoughts?
No, energy usage will not help protein synthesis and muscle building. All this will do is let you get results while eating less. The only way this will help is if you are not able to eat enough to grow. Genetics and circulating testosterone levels have a lot more to do with it.

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Post by frogbyte » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Ricky wrote:EDIT: And reading it, it's actually extremely close to what I'm already doing. I'm not so big on the supplements though; I've just been adjusting my diet a bit so I get adequate protein with the cut in calories.
I'm not taking a thermogenic/caffeine (unless you count eating large amounts of garlic all the time), and I am supplementing protein. I think if I discounting the protein supplement I'd be almost at 10x weight in cals, with those ratios, except maybe slightly less carbs even counting fiber carbs.

I think I'm continuing to lose fat, but too bad there's not an accurate at-home fat measurement system to be certain.

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