ExRx Deadlift Muscles?

Discussion of peer refereed articles and clinical applications

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, ianjay, stuward

Locked
buckybadger64
n00b
n00b
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:14 pm

ExRx Deadlift Muscles?

Post by buckybadger64 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:29 pm

Something looks amiss. The forearms are used to grasp the barbell in a deadlift, but no arm or wrist muscles are listed as synergists or stabilizers. This doesn't seem right. Is this an omission or inaccuracy?

Also, the text of the deadlift execution is *slightly* different depending on whether the targeted muscles are the glutes or the lower back. Should this discrepancy be ignored, or is the execution *slightly* different if I want to target one or the other muscle?

User avatar
nygmen
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1802
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:51 pm
Location: Mass, USA

Post by nygmen » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:05 pm

I think you are over-complicating a simple thing.

just my opinion.

buckybadger64
n00b
n00b
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:14 pm

Post by buckybadger64 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:18 pm

nygmen wrote:I think you are over-complicating a simple thing.

just my opinion.
Yea, I know. I'm an engineer. Specificity and accuracy are important to me for matters that matter to me.

This is an outstanding site. I use it to tailor my strength training programs. I'd like to know if the information on this site is known to be accurate, and if not, would the admins care so they could correct it?

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:40 pm

First of all, we are just a bunch of people who have joined this forum. None of us (even the moderators of the forum) is responsible for the contents on the main part of the ExRx.Net.

Second of all, you are right, all of the gripping muscles should be considered synergists for the DL.

Third of all, there is no way on God's Green Earth that you can deadlift without targeting both the glutes and the lower back. So, yes, any such "discrepancy" should be ignored.

Which leads to Nygmen's conclusion, with which I agree.

As an engineer you should understand that specificity and accuracy can be quantified, and that different degrees of specificity and accuracy are appropriate in different situations. A quarter of an inch error is OK framing a barn, not in machining parts for a precision machine. The same is true in strength training. Some details just ain't important.

OK. After writing the above, I went to the site and looked at the DL entries under erector spinae and under glute max. The instruction was identical (I don't really like their description, but still) for each one. What is the "discrepancy" that you found?

buckybadger64
n00b
n00b
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:14 pm

Post by buckybadger64 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:59 pm

Jungledoc wrote:First of all, we are just a bunch of people who have joined this forum. None of us (even the moderators of the forum) is responsible for the contents on the main part of the ExRx.Net.

Second of all, you are right, all of the gripping muscles should be considered synergists for the DL.

Third of all, there is no way on God's Green Earth that you can deadlift without targeting both the glutes and the lower back. So, yes, any such "discrepancy" should be ignored.

Which leads to Nygmen's conclusion, with which I agree.

As an engineer you should understand that specificity and accuracy can be quantified, and that different degrees of specificity and accuracy are appropriate in different situations. A quarter of an inch error is OK framing a barn, not in machining parts for a precision machine. The same is true in strength training. Some details just ain't important.

OK. After writing the above, I went to the site and looked at the DL entries under erector spinae and under glute max. The instruction was identical (I don't really like their description, but still) for each one. What is the "discrepancy" that you found?
Hmmm, I didn't know this forum was separate from the main site. First time posting.

Anyway, for the lower back, execution ends as follows, "Return and repeat." For the glutes, you have, "Return by bending knees forward slightly while allowing hips to bend back behind, keeping back straight and knees pointed same direction as feet. Repeat." As stated earlier, a *slight* difference.

Doesn't sound like much, but for the barbell squat, a difference in the preparation wording affects the target muscle group (quads vs glutes). I don't know if the difference in the deadlift execution is significant or should be ignored.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:00 pm

And what do you mean by "known to be accurate"? I'm sure that it is thought to be accurate to its authors! I think it's pretty good, and you just aren't going to get any better than in the strength-training world. It's too complex a field, and with too many smart, strong-willed, opinionated people involved for it too be cut and dried.

If you work at it you can find this email link on the site: [email protected]. To save you the trouble that I went through to find it, I'll put it here. I have no idea what they do with the feedback they receive. There is a page of comments that they have received, so it looks like someone pays attention.

User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:53 am

James does screen the feedbacks. Also, just use [email protected] to go to him directly. He's the site owner and put it all together
Tim

buckybadger64
n00b
n00b
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:14 pm

Post by buckybadger64 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:37 am

TimD wrote:James does screen the feedbacks. Also, just use [email protected] to go to him directly. He's the site owner and put it all together
Tim
Yep. I just got a response from him. He directed me to the following link (see the "Exercise Muscular Analysis" section):

http://exrx.net/Notes/Notes.html

I'd still prefer to see all muscles listed, but I understand the reasoning for their omission. Grasping muscles are used on so many exercises, as he stated, "where do you draw the line?"

I like this site. I just made a donation to ExRx.net and recommend it highly to anyone looking to better understand how their strength training program relates to making their body stronger.

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3991
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:40 pm

Grasping muscles are used on so many exercises
That's exactly what I was going to say. The exercise and muscle directory are accurate and comprehensive. I found it to be a great tool for learning this stuff and engineering my routines to hit everything with minimal overlap.

There's a very scientific approach on the site, and I try to maintain that on the forum as well.

Oscar_Actuary
Veteren Member
Veteren Member
Posts: 2406
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:12 pm

Post by Oscar_Actuary » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:36 pm

As an ignorant novice, I too relied greatly on this sight to put together a plan. The TS raises some interesting points which lead me to check out the "Dumbbell Squat" as seen under Quadriceps and Gluteus Maximus.

The pages swap labeling Glutes or Quads as Target or Synergist. I'll use this knowledge to now expand the "Target" muscle of several exercises.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:41 am

buckybadger64 wrote:Anyway, for the lower back, execution ends as follows, "Return and repeat." For the glutes, you have, "Return by bending knees forward slightly while allowing hips to bend back behind, keeping back straight and knees pointed same direction as feet. Repeat." As stated earlier, a *slight* difference.
That's like the difference between saying "drive from your house to the office" or saying "drive to your office by backing out of the driveway, going east on 7th street, and then north on Bucky Avenue."
buckybadger64 wrote:Doesn't sound like much, but for the barbell squat, a difference in the preparation wording affects the target muscle group (quads vs glutes). I don't know if the difference in the deadlift execution is significant or should be ignored.
Well, it should probably be ignored by most of us. The general idea is that by "sitting back" more, keeping the shins more vertical you hit the glutes more. May not hit the quads much less, and the difference seems slight to me. I worked for a long time to try to achieve vertical shins, and finally realized that this is a powerlifting influence that I didn't really need, and I actually did better if I allowed my knees a little more freedom to move forward. This is affected by the width of the stance as well. With a wider stance, you keep your shins more vertical and vice versa. I still try to move the hips back before the knees start bending, and try to reach back with my butt, but if my patellae pass the vertical line that starts at my big toe, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

The important things in squat are a neutral spine, knees staying aligned (in the same plane as) the feet, and getting at least to parallel. If you do those 3 things, it's a safe and useful exercise. Everything else is just flavor variation. Like Kenny C says, you have chocolate and you have vanilla, but it's all ice cream.

frogbyte
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by frogbyte » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:09 pm

Please add the heart as a synergist on every exercise. It's been ignored for too long.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:32 pm

diaphragm

frogbyte
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Post by frogbyte » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:37 am

Brain?

Locked